really old phone lines

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My experience is with Verizon also. In my area Bell Atlantic preceeded Verizon and Chesapeake and Potomac Tel. Co. preceeded Bell Atlantic. Many of the homes in my neighborhood, as well as the neighborhood I lived in about 12 years ago, never had demarc boxes installed.
The previous owner of my home had 2 lines. There are 2 cables that come directly from a utility pole, attach to the side of the house with standoffs, go down to the sill plate and enter the basement at the gap between the siding and the sill plate. They continue about 10 feet into the basement where each cable is connected to a separate junction block. The same large-gauge, exterior wire connects one of these blocks to a third block located about 25 feet away in another part of the basement. Each block has several cables connected to it for the different extension locations. Some of these cables are so old that they are cotton-covered. A few rooms still have the old 4 prong phone jacks.
I have had a few problems with our phone wiring over the years. I have _ASKED_ Verizon to PLEASE install a demarc box on several occasions but the service techs just won't do it, instead they come into the house and "fix" the immediate problem. We have never been billed for these "fixes." I would rather have Verizon install a box, and rewire the house with modern cabling myself. Perhaps one day Verizon will install the demarc and I can go ahead with that plan
--
There are no stupid questions, but there are lots of stupid answers.

Larry Wasserman - Baltimore Maryland - lwasserm(a)sdf. lonestar. org
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snipped-for-privacy@sdf.lNoOnSePsAtMar.org (Larry W) wrote:

Feel free to do whatever wiring you like, WHEN you like.
Just because there is no "official" SNI/D doesn't mean you can't do your own wiring. You simply begin your wiring at the point where the telco drop wire terminates - usually on a protector block.
With the simple installation of a RJ11 block and short line cord, you can build your own "interface" just immediately beyond the telco's protector.
If I were to completely rewire a home, I would place a dedicated "home run" to each outlet (as opposed to the "series" type of wiring) and terminate each cable to a point that is walk-up accessible on a utility room wall. From that location you simply run ONE cable to the demarc. Fumbling around in the joists, along with the darkness and spider webs, is a PITA.
--
:)
JR

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On Thu, 28 Aug 2008 09:01:37 -0500, Jim Redelfs

That is where a "66" block comes in handy. Loop the telco pair through the left side using the "no cut" side of the punch tool and bring all of your home runs to separate pairs on the right side (using the "cut" side). Bridging clips makes the final connection and removing them 2 at a time will isolate any home run to aid in trouble shooting a problem.
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Jim Redelfs wrote:

internet is a wonderful thing. Just connect the old telco house feed to the 'protected' side of the box.
-- aem sends...
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Agreed. However, some folks object to PAYING for, and installing themselves, that which SHOULD (and eventually might) be installed for "free" by the telco.

While it sounds easy enough, keep in mind that service providers take a VERY dim view of unauthorized persons messing with THEIR property.
In my experience, those that did work on the telco side of the demarc did so in a shoddy, uninformed manner. Most often the ground was omitted. Ignorant or, more likely, careless alarm system installers were most likely to work "ahead" of the demarc. In many cases, they would make their "line seizure" tap AHEAD of the protector, routing the unprotected pair to the alarm system panel, then back to the protector where it was finally protected.
There is a potential, significant ADVANTAGE to NOT having an official network interface, particularly IF the customer does NOT subscribe to an inside wiring maintenance plan: In the event of inside wire trouble, where the subscriber is unable to UNPLUG from the network, a trouble isolation charge is NOT levied. It is during this isolation process that the repair tech is SUPPOSED to install a SNI/D, especially if the customer does NOT subscribe to an inside wire maintenance plan. That way, if inside trouble occurs again, the isolation charge ($) CAN be levied.
On numerous occasions, I encountered and performed just as I described. I would install the interface. Then, if the trouble was on just ONE of the station wires, I would leave that one disconnected, usually restoring service to the rest of the customer's system.
If there was only one pair leaving the old protector (series-wired home), the customer remained out of service until the inside trouble was cleared.
In either case, I would show the customer their new SNI and demonstrate its operation. I would then explain their options for repair including an offer to fix the inside trouble myself at my company's exorbitant rate.
A SNI/D (Standard Network Interface Device) does NOT necessarily improve service as it provides NO improved protection compared to the old, grandfathered "hard-wired to the protector" service. The SNI/D simply provides an OFFICIAL point of demarcation between the service provider and the customer AND a convenient means to disconnect from the network for trouble isolation purposes.
--
:)
JR

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<...snipped...>

phone co? :) Yeah, I know I could install a box myself, but I guess I can be just as stubborn as the phone co. I've added new wiring where the house needs it, but I'd just rather not do Verizon's job for them.
--
Make it as simple as possible, but no simpler.

Larry Wasserman - Baltimore Maryland - lwasserm(a)sdf. lonestar. org
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Which was a real blessing! They will still do the wiring though, if you want them to. And you're right, these days they have a cadre of "approved" contractors do the wiring. But it's not cheap. It used to be done by their own technicians "back when" but no more. You can even do your own digital wiring these days of course and it's much easier and a lot clearer what to do now; you almost can't go wrong with digital except that there are so many different kinds. For those, excepting some DSL lo speed stuff, you really have to have CAT5 or the new CAT6 depending, or the lines just won't work well. I ran new CAT 5 for all my wiring as soon as I discovered we were goint to get DSL so I don't know how bad it gets with the old wiring. Pretty bad I imagine, esp if it's old enough to not be twisted pair cable. I haven't seen it, but I understand you can even get CAT5 or 6 cable with a sheath for grounding; I guess Faraday lives on!
Cheers,
Twayne
You

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Actually, the ownership of inside station wiring was transferred to the property owner shortly after Divestiture: January 1, 1984.
...and it was NOT a blessing for at least 7-8 years.
Shortly after it became legal for non-telco personnel to install inside wiring, every electrical contractor forced their employees to install wire that was made improperly (no twist).
It was a mess: Non-standard (crosstalk) wire installed by those that were MAD because they felt forced to add it to their existing job - and they felt it was NOT their job. They were not privy to the politics of Divestiture.

The confidence with which you write belies your expertise; rather, your LACK of it.
Inside (deregulated) wiring is still done today, EVERY day, by telco employees - not just contractors.

Just what *IS* "digital" wiring?

I respectfully disagree.
Particularly with DSL, data-rated cable (Cat 5e, etc) is NOT required.
Think about it: The DSL signal is delivered to the end user over as much as 3-4 MILES of non-data-rated cable that was made before DSL was even thought of. It makes no sense to attach Cat 5e wire when its fed with (probably) "Cat 2-1/2" cable.
Data-rated, twisted pair cable is required for high-speed networks - not the POTS (Plain Old Telephone Service) system. And DSL - ALL "flavors" of it - are delivered over the POTS network.

Nice wire but unnecessary for DSL (phone line-to-the-modem).

Not bad as long as the pair is good. In fact, DSL will operate, albeit more slowly, on a faulted pair on just ONE conductor (the other being OPEN.)

Nope. You can deliver a reliable DSL signal to the modem using well insulated bailing wire. Of course, I would avoid running that hack near any motors, ballasts or other working pairs.

That is otherwise known as shielded cable. It, too, is overkill on the POTS side of things - DSL included.
--
:)
JR

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On Tue, 26 Aug 2008 11:21:19 -0400, "TWayne"

Bwhaahahahahahahahahahahaha!
They need to come up with a new word for "ignornace" to cover you. "ignorance" just doesn't cover it.
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I don't think it was in the 90's that we got that they put that little box outside the house. I *know* it wasn't the late 70's or even mid '80s here, anyway. (New Rochelle, NY, "Westchester County")

David
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snipped-for-privacy@panix.com (David Combs) wrote:

The Bell System break-up, the "Divestiture", occurred on January 1, 1984.
The first, official Standard Network Interface Devices (SNI/D) began appearing some months thereafter.
Protectors (not SNI/D) had been often mounted on the outside of the home for 10-20 years before that. During that period, it depended on the whim of the installer as to whether the protector was located inside or outside the premise. Those installed in the winter months were usually located indoors. <grin>
--
:)
JR

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You, kind sir, are mistaken.
The yellow/black pair in the old "light olive green D-Station Wire" was most certainly - and commonly - used to provide a second line within the same cable (along side the red/green pair). This is true whether in a residential or commercial application.
This practice was enumerated in the BSPs (Bell System Practice)s.
A telco will - and does - work on such a two-line arrangement to this day. It's "legal", proper and [ta da!] works just fine.

The OP read your words just fine. They were wrong.
--
:)
JR

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On Tue, 26 Aug 2008 20:31:25 -0500, Jim Redelfs

I have 2 lines here and the few old sections of the original wiring from the 60s had terrible crosstalk when you used both lines at the same time. That really became obvious when you had a modem on one of the lines. I ended up rewiring the whole cludge with twisted pair to stop it
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snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

No doubt.
It's pretty simple: If there is crosstalk, the cable is made wrong.
Western Electric's old, light-olive gray D-Station wire (quad wire) would NOT crosstalk even though it had very little twist. The red and green conductors were across from - not NEXT to - each other. Likewise for the yellow and black conductors. They were stacked like this if viewed as a cross section:
red - black green - yellow
This configuration prevented POTS crosstalk. The introduction of Touchtone<r> and, later, dial-up modems, created some cross, but it was usually only audible if the CUMULATIVE length of the quad was great.
Following divestiture, the big cable manufacturers (Rome, Cerro, General, etc) saw a potentially huge, untapped market. They all jumped on their looms and began cranking out UNTWISTED cable.
They never bothered to inquire of Western Electric or the incumbent telcos as to how we got 300 people on a 400 pair cable yet they never heard one another (crosstalk).
There was a period of about 7-8 years after Divestiture where virtually all new construction was done with garbage wire.
This situation wasn't discovered by the homeowner until they added a second line - right about the time that dial-up internet was coming on strong. Suddenly, they reported HOOL (Hears Others On Line). It didn't take long for us to figure out what was going on.
Heck, for the last twenty years of my career, I installed and maintained the service to a true MANSION. It is a gated estate complete with gargoyles and all the toys. During construction, the place was independently wired with about two bucks-worth of crosstalk quad!!
Of course, this was insufficient from about day one as the owner (a VERY successful businessman) peaked at about 5 lines and one FX (foreign exchange) line. He also added a four-wire, high-speed data setup years before there was DSL.
I installed two, multi-line SNIs on the outside of the huge home and we "walked away" from the garbage wire inside. Independent phone contractors dealt with the inside from that day on.
My favorite encounter there in later years was the independently installed 6-pair station in the third-floor "cupola" room centered in the middle of the roof - an island in the roof.
The "technician" bored a hole through a window sill, shoved out the wire, climbed onto the roof and proceed with the installation. When done, the 6-pair INSIDE cable lay across the sloped roof and ran down the INSIDE of the downspout! At the bottom, the installer bored a hole in the elbow near the SNIs, fished out the wire and connected it. I never did learn how long that hack lasted. Not long, I'm sure.
--
:)
JR

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On Wed, 27 Aug 2008 08:20:56 -0500, Jim Redelfs

Thanks. I didn't know that. This was done with belden wire, not W/E.
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On Mon, 25 Aug 2008 12:24:11 -0400, "TWayne"
[snip]

A lot of the materials I've seen (including wiring diagrams for jacks) say yellow/black is for a second line. Also, if you have a third pair, blue/white for a third line.
I don't know about key systems, but aren't the lights (that use yellow/black) obsolete?
--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com
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On Mon 25 Aug 2008 10:54:00a, Mark Lloyd told us...

Not if you still have those type of phones. Many people still do.
--
Wayne Boatwright

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You can still buy small key systems; quite a few places make them. I know Mitel Inc. manufactures them for their North American market.
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yes but some may still be in use.......
bell telephone here, installed second line for business using black and yellow wires, sometime in late 70s early 80s.
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Hmm, please cite your source? I'd like a look at them for myself. I'm wondering if you aren't mixing up different RJ families of connectors or something or whether something has changed. At least from CFR data on the 'net, nothing has changed so it would have had to have happened within the last say two to three years at the most. But there are of course, multi-line phone jacks and cabling required to cable them up. But you can't plug a "normal" telephone into them; they're made for special equipment. Blue/White for what it's worth is part a large jack/connector combination and nothing you would ever find in the home or even stores that sell phone equipment unless they also sold key sets, PBXs and what not. I've never even seen pure blue here in the states; only in the UK.
TIA,
Twayne

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