R-22 vs. R410a (Puron)

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Which systems are more reliable, those that use R22 vs. R410a? Are R410a systems REALLY as reliable R22?
I live in a condo and replacing the refrigerant lineset would involve ripping up the ceiling drywall. My AC system is 20 years old. Wondering the best solution would be to get a new R22 system (with existing refrigerant lines) installed before 2010. If the existing system were to die after 2010, then only systems that use 410a will be sold, and I would have to hope and pray that cleaning/purging out the old lines REALLY is going to be sufficient for a reliable 410a system. What do you think?
Thanks,
J.
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Depends on the installer.

You're likely to be screwed either way, if the lineset isn't large enough for the new high S.E.E.R. equipment.
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In our area, I'm beginning to notice a few common trade practices (that might be unique to around here), and wonder if you could flesh out the reasoning for one of them.
Except for slab construction, I've noticed that nobody seems to use chases or conduits through which to run linesets. I've even seen a few cast right into slabs without the first bit of pipe around them. It seems to me that some 4" or 6" thinwall waste pipe would be a great investment toward future upgrades. For any set shorter than 100', it would be pretty inexpensive, too.
I have seen a lot of water in the couple of grade-level or below-grade sets I've pulled out of conduit, and suppose that might be one objection to using it. (Ken _likes_ it that it's my hands and not his in that stagnant goop...)
Are there other reasons - besides the basic cost of materials and labor - that make conduit/chase installation of linesets undesirable?
LLoyd
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Gotta love it when the lowest bidder gets the job

There is a reason that your supposed to seal both ends of the chase

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So, by that, do you mean it _should_ be done, and just isn't to save time/sweat?

The two I pulled _were_ "sealed" somewhat -- one only with foam (spray-on) and one with foam and capped with mortar at the outside end; and of course, the mortar was cracked. On both, the inside end was sealed with foam. I presume the water was from condensation and not from leakage. Seems like only a good hermetic seal would prevent the pipe from breathing under temperature changes.
What should be used? Is there a fitting designed to the purpose?

You may have answered that there aren't... but I didn't read that clearly.
LLoyd
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yup... if the lineset is in the slab, a PVC chase is required.

I use the expanding foam on both ends.... it seems to work well enough. The only things I run through the lineset chase are the lineset and the control wires. No I don't tie the lineset and wires together or tape them.....I have had to replace too many wires that were taped or tied. I don't staple them inside of the walls either.

Just use the expanding foam.....its a good idea to make sure that the inside of the chase is clean and dry before you run the copper.

nope, and the only additional cost is $10 in 4 inch drain pipe

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I was on a job once and saw perforated pipe used. The contractor told me that there was a perimeter drain and the refrigerant lines were above the tile, so instead of sealing off the ends with foam he stuffed them. His idea is that any condensation leaks would be leached. Interesting way he thinks
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ummmmm...... yeah......ok........
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Noon-Air That might be ok where you are but if your talking about apartments or commercial where some form of fire separation/segregation is required. Expanding polyurethene sealants are forbidden in these instances so you might like to/should reconsider and used an appropriate intumescent (fire rated) mastic sealant.
As to the practice of pouring concrete over the linesets - sounds like a whole lot of liability exposure to me...

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wrote in message

I only use the expanding foam where the lineset is inside of a PVC chase inside of the slab. 99% of what I do is single family residential. Apartment owners and commerical building owners around here only want the lowest bidder.

The linesets are encased in a PVC pipe chase inside of the slab so there is no direct contact between copper and concrete. The PVC pipe chase also makes it a lot easier to change the lineset when needed.
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single detached dwelling units. Some more considerations for all you craftsmen ...... Also glad that you use extended radius wherever practical - For R22 I believe that the rule of thumb for linesets is each 90deg bend is equal to 5m (that's about 15 feet) of horizontal pipe run and the maximum lift for R22 needs to be kept below 6m (20 ft). An oil trap needs to be used if the evaporator is below the compressor (or the oil will migrate out of the compressor then "poof" another unnecessary callout and repair) and if otherwise the lineset should fall at not less than 1degree back to the compressor (same reason).
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Hey, that's a great idea! How much radius do you think you need on the curve to pull a lineset through 35' of horizontal pipe and then up a foot or two into the HVAC closet?
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wrote:

Just put a 45 degree elbow (long radius prefered)on the pipe where it comes out in the closet floor.
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Ah, so don't come straight up! Just try to get into the closet as straight as possible, and with as few degrees of bend as possible, and with as long a radius as possible. Ok, I'll put that in the spec!
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wrote:

I don't know how much you can get away with on a 7/8" suction line, but the two I've pulled both had 45-degree ells at both ends (total 90). The pull and subsequent re-piping were a little bit hard, and required some cooperation to not put too much pull at the bends, but we didn't crimp the suction lines doing them.
LLoyd
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Jay-n-123 writes:

R-22 runs at much lower pressures and systems using it are therefore cheaper and more reliable, other things being equal. A given 410a system could be reliable enough, but only at some higher relative cost.
410a systems only exist because of politics, not technical merits.
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Do you think I should plan on gettting a new R22 system by 2009 since they stop making R22 systems in 2010? (My existing system is 20 years old)
<<R-22 runs at much lower pressures and systems using it are therefore cheaper and more reliable, other things being equal. A given 410a system could be reliable enough, but only at some higher relative cost.
410a systems only exist because of politics, not technical merits.>>
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Currently, the R-22 systems are more expensive that the R-410a systems of the same size and efficiency
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First Thank you Mr. Kinch You are the first person that I read in these forum about Refrigerant 410, I personally I do not find anything good about R-410. but then all new refrigerants are not that great with exception of R-508B all rest run with high temp. discharge if system develop leak on low side 9 to 1 you must change oil because you can not take moisture out of oil, so what it's good about this new refrigerant I have no idea. However Manufactures loves R-410 because it makes compressors more efficient specifically Scrowl no that is not correct, "actually all compressors other then reciprocal" again because it is easier for them to assemble the system and compressors are cheaper there is no other benefits from this refrigerant
I regard to piping size you can always use higher pressure refrigerants on the older systems that was using lower pressure refrigerant of the same capacities. Note yes R-22 manufacture will stop making new gas but recycled gas will be on market for long time after that. Tony www.cas-environ.com

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You must be new here....

So what? How does that make them poor refrigerants?

A leak on the low side doesn't mean moisture will get into the system. It's still under pressure. How do you figure external moisture is going to overcome the pressure of the refrigerant leaking out and infiltrate the system?

Maybe take a night school course.

Where are you getting this shit from?? Did this come to you in a dream???
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