Problem with clothes dryer not getting hot enough: How do you test a sensor?

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On 3/25/2013 11:24 PM, Robert Booby Green wrote:

Oh my God Booby Green, I knew you would write another novel. You P.L.L.C.F. types are the most fun of all with your always wrong assertions and your bizarre assumptions. The most entertaining thing about you and those of your ilk is the fact that you really think you're important and that you matter. Good luck with that Booby Troll. I think it wonderful that you believe in free speech only as long as it's your own or what you believe in or approve of. I especially was touched by your threat to contact the news service I'm using and complain so you could get me banned. You can always killfile me if you hate and despise my posts but of course I would never killfile anyone as goofy as you over what you may believe or write because it's too entertaining. Keep trying Booby G., perhaps you may actually insult me if you spew enough of your insipid vitriol. ^_^
TDD
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On Mar 26, 3:04 am, The Daring Dufas <the-daring-du...@stinky- finger.net> wrote:

Don't you find it interesting how he compared you to a terrorist? Isn't that a lib loon classic? I mean, let's assume he's right and you're a troll. Compare an internet troll to a terrorist? It just shows how out of touch he is. Did a troll kill 3200 Americans on 911? Then he tops it off by bitching about someone else calling someone a Nazi...... Go figure.
Then for good measure he throws in this:
"The only way out now is a retraction. Just like men's room footsie- playing gay Republican Congressman Larry Craig tried to pull. Do you have a wide-stance defense for your trolling like he did? "
If a Republican ever made such a remark, it would be immediately condemed by Bobby and all the libs as a bigotted hate crime and a smear against gays. But when he does it, it's cool.....
And of course if a conservative every wrote a whole novel like that, why it would be a shining example of their intolerance and rage.

Boy, you sure succeeded in rattling his cage. Apparently it doesn't take much. Maybe he's off his medicine. I have pictures of him running around the house, concealed carry weapon out and waving around in his hand, kicking the cat, smashing vases, screaming I hate you Dufas! You're a terrorist!
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this does appear to be a type of dryer that is "new" to many of us
http://ths.gardenweb.com/faq/lists/laundry/2004120958010854.html
yes it is essentially a de-humidifer for clothes.
so if it is a condensing dryer, and the so called outer loop is a water loop, then what the OP said starts to make sense. The machine won't run without a water supply because it uses the water flow to cool the condenser ?
So if the machine has a refrigeration cycle similar to a DE-humidifer, and the refrigeration section is not working, there is a whole list of things that could possibly be wrong...
OP, when the machine was working in the past, did it make a humming sound like an air conditioner?
Does it still make that sound now?
Mark
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ok, most of these are NOT refrigeration based... but this paragraph is relevant to the Op
With most current standalone condenser dryers, it is necessary to periodically clean the condenser unit - perhaps once a month or so, one needs to slide out the condenser module and wash off any accumulated lint. Thus condensers require a bit more "work" than vented dryers - although this may entail less actual effort than the recommended annual ductwork cleaning for vented dryers (which is very important for both performance and fire safety reasons!).
Mark
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On Tuesday, March 26, 2013 4:25:48 PM UTC-4, Mark wrote:

Good idea but there is no material trap of any type to clean out, whether c ondenser or not. Yes it does hum a bit but I hadn't thought that this was relevant to why it doesn't dry well. It also habitually grinds a bit which sounds wrong but there again, it doesn't seem relevant. Again, I know that the sensor is commonly replaced but am reluctant to waste money by putting a replacement in if the problem is with the element. I suspect the only thi ng which is going to help me is finding out where that grey wire goes on th is unit.
As the service/importer wouldn't tell me, I suppose I may have to ask the m anufacturer in Italy who I am sure isn't set up to respond to this type of question. Then hope that if I connect it correctly, the heater will sudden ly spring to life.
If anyone knows where there may be a wiring diagram for this unit under any of the plethora of names which are used, I would appreciate it as I am rea sonably sure there isn't much wrong with the sensor or the element!
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wrote:

condenser or not.  Yes it does hum a bit but I hadn't thought that this was relevant to why it doesn't dry well. It also habitually grinds a bit wh ich sounds wrong but there again, it doesn't seem relevant. Again, I know t hat the sensor is commonly replaced but am reluctant to waste money by putt ing a replacement in if the problem is with the element. I suspect the only thing which is going to help me is finding out where that grey wire goes o n this unit.

manufacturer in Italy who I am sure isn't set up to respond to this type o f question.  Then hope that if I connect it correctly, the heater will su ddenly spring to life.

ny of the plethora of names which are used, I would appreciate it as I am r easonably sure there isn't much wrong with the sensor or the element!- Hide quoted text -

As I suggested previously, have you tried looking for a wiring diagram on the back of the unit? Or behind the back cover panel? I've even seen them as folded up sheets stuck inside, behind one of the main access panels that a service guy would take off.
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On Wednesday, March 27, 2013 9:09:07 AM UTC-4, Amanda Ripanykhazova wrote:

ese are NOT refrigeration based... > > but this paragraph is relevant to th e Op > > > > With most current standalone condenser dryers, it is necessary to > > periodically clean the condenser unit - perhaps once a month or so, > > one needs to slide out the condenser module and wash off any > > accum ulated lint. Thus condensers require a bit more "work" than > > vented drye rs - although this may entail less actual effort than the > > recommended a nnual ductwork cleaning for vented dryers (which is very > > important for both performance and fire safety reasons!). > > > > Mark Good idea but ther e is no material trap of any type to clean out, whether condenser or not. Y es it does hum a bit but I hadn't thought that this was relevant to why it doesn't dry well. It also habitually grinds a bit which sounds wrong but th ere again, it doesn't seem relevant. Again, I know that the sensor is commo nly replaced but am reluctant to waste money by putting a replacement in if the problem is with the element. I suspect the only thing which is going t o help me is finding out where that grey wire goes on this unit. As the ser vice/importer wouldn't tell me, I suppose I may have to ask the manufacture r in Italy who I am sure isn't set up to respond to this type of question. Then hope that if I connect it correctly, the heater will suddenly spring t o life. If anyone knows where there may be a wiring diagram for this unit u nder any of the plethora of names which are used, I would appreciate it as I am reasonably sure there isn't much wrong with the sensor or the element!
It's common for manufacturers to tape a folded up wiring diagrahm and schem atic inside appliances. This keeps the service guys from having to haul aro und hundreds of them. You have a combination washer, condensing dryer. It d oes not add water to the clothes during the drying cycle but may use water to cool the condensing unit. They are not usually very good at drying but m ake up for it some by having a really high spin cycle at the end of the was h phase. And if you do not have a outside vent there's not much you can do
I don't know your specific model but generally there are several temp senso rs on the drying cycle as well as possibly a moisture sensor. The temp sens ors may include ones to prevent it from going over a certain temp while run ning as well as a safety sensor that has a higher temp. Often the safety on e is a one-shot, once it has been tripped it must be replaced. That's on th e theory that some other failure caused it to be tripped and the appliance needs other work as well as a new safety temp sensor.
Finding the schematic is going to be very helpful. Some google searches mig ht help you as many manufacturers also make theoir schematics available onl ine. These are also not super complicated so it is possible to trace the he ating circuit out by hand. And a volt ohm meter would help a lot with this and with trouble shooting in general. As a general rule the temp sensors wi ll be closed when cool if they are wired in series with the heating element . If they are connected to a main control board they may be open when cool and closed when hot. You can check these with a hair dryer. You can also ch eck for continuity of the heating element. If you can get enough covers off to get to the heating element but still be able to run the unit you can al so check for voltage at the heating element while it is running.
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On Wednesday, March 27, 2013 10:06:14 AM UTC-4, jamesgang wrote:

: > On Tuesday, March 26, 2013 4:25:48 PM UTC-4, Mark wrote: > ok, most of these are NOT refrigeration based... > > but this paragraph is relevant to the Op > > > > With most current standalone condenser dryers, it is necessa ry to > > periodically clean the condenser unit - perhaps once a month or s o, > > one needs to slide out the condenser module and wash off any > > acc umulated lint. Thus condensers require a bit more "work" than > > vented dr yers - although this may entail less actual effort than the > > recommended annual ductwork cleaning for vented dryers (which is very > > important fo r both performance and fire safety reasons!). > > > > Mark Good idea but th ere is no material trap of any type to clean out, whether condenser or not. Yes it does hum a bit but I hadn't thought that this was relevant to why i t doesn't dry well. It also habitually grinds a bit which sounds wrong but there again, it doesn't seem relevant. Again, I know that the sensor is com monly replaced but am reluctant to waste money by putting a replacement in if the problem is with the element. I suspect the only thing which is going to help me is finding out where that grey wire goes on this unit. As the s ervice/importer wouldn't tell me, I suppose I may have to ask the manufactu rer in Italy who I am sure isn't set up to respond to this type of question . Then hope that if I connect it correctly, the heater will suddenly spring to life. If anyone knows where there may be a wiring diagram for this unit under any of the plethora of names which are used, I would appreciate it a s I am reasonably sure there isn't much wrong with the sensor or the elemen t!

ematic inside appliances. This keeps the service guys from having to haul a round hundreds of them. You have a combination washer, condensing dryer. It does not add water to the clothes during the drying cycle but may use wate r to cool the condensing unit. They are not usually very good at drying but make up for it some by having a really high spin cycle at the end of the w ash phase. And if you do not have a outside vent there's not much you can d o

sors on the drying cycle as well as possibly a moisture sensor. The temp se nsors may include ones to prevent it from going over a certain temp while r unning as well as a safety sensor that has a higher temp. Often the safety one is a one-shot, once it has been tripped it must be replaced. That's on the theory that some other failure caused it to be tripped and the applianc e needs other work as well as a new safety temp sensor.

ight help you as many manufacturers also make theoir schematics available o nline. These are also not super complicated so it is possible to trace the heating circuit out by hand. And a volt ohm meter would help a lot with thi s and with trouble shooting in general. As a general rule the temp sensors will be closed when cool if they are wired in series with the heating eleme nt. If they are connected to a main control board they may be open when coo l and closed when hot. You can check these with a hair dryer. You can also check for continuity of the heating element. If you can get enough covers o ff to get to the heating element but still be able to run the unit you can also check for voltage at the heating element while it is running.
No, I have had this thing apart numerous times and there is no wiring diagr am in it.
But the sensor idea is a good one as the one next to the replaceable one do es look a bit burned (again, the plastic cover, not the spades themselves)
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On Wednesday, March 27, 2013 10:36:17 PM UTC-4, Amanda Ripanykhazova wrote:

nesday, March 27, 2013 9:09:07 AM UTC-4, Amanda Ripanykhazova wrote: > On T uesday, March 26, 2013 4:25:48 PM UTC-4, Mark wrote: > ok, most of these ar e NOT refrigeration based... > > but this paragraph is relevant to the Op > > > > With most current standalone condenser dryers, it is necessary to >

ne needs to slide out the condenser module and wash off any > > accumulated lint. Thus condensers require a bit more "work" than > > vented dryers - a lthough this may entail less actual effort than the > > recommended annual ductwork cleaning for vented dryers (which is very > > important for both p erformance and fire safety reasons!). > > > > Mark Good idea but there is n o material trap of any type to clean out, whether condenser or not. Yes it does hum a bit but I hadn't thought that this was relevant to why it doesn' t dry well. It also habitually grinds a bit which sounds wrong but there ag ain, it doesn't seem relevant. Again, I know that the sensor is commonly re placed but am reluctant to waste money by putting a replacement in if the p roblem is with the element. I suspect the only thing which is going to help me is finding out where that grey wire goes on this unit. As the service/i mporter wouldn't tell me, I suppose I may have to ask the manufacturer in I taly who I am sure isn't set up to respond to this type of question. Then h ope that if I connect it correctly, the heater will suddenly spring to life . If anyone knows where there may be a wiring diagram for this unit under a ny of the plethora of names which are used, I would appreciate it as I am r easonably sure there isn't much wrong with the sensor or the element! > > > > It's common for manufacturers to tape a folded up wiring diagrahm and sc hematic inside appliances. This keeps the service guys from having to haul around hundreds of them. You have a combination washer, condensing dryer. I t does not add water to the clothes during the drying cycle but may use wat er to cool the condensing unit. They are not usually very good at drying bu t make up for it some by having a really high spin cycle at the end of the wash phase. And if you do not have a outside vent there's not much you can do > > > > I don't know your specific model but generally there are several temp sensors on the drying cycle as well as possibly a moisture sensor. Th e temp sensors may include ones to prevent it from going over a certain tem p while running as well as a safety sensor that has a higher temp. Often th e safety one is a one-shot, once it has been tripped it must be replaced. T hat's on the theory that some other failure caused it to be tripped and the appliance needs other work as well as a new safety temp sensor. > > > > Fi nding the schematic is going to be very helpful. Some google searches might help you as many manufacturers also make theoir schematics available onlin e. These are also not super complicated so it is possible to trace the heat ing circuit out by hand. And a volt ohm meter would help a lot with this an d with trouble shooting in general. As a general rule the temp sensors will be closed when cool if they are wired in series with the heating element. If they are connected to a main control board they may be open when cool an d closed when hot. You can check these with a hair dryer. You can also chec k for continuity of the heating element. If you can get enough covers off t o get to the heating element but still be able to run the unit you can also check for voltage at the heating element while it is running. No, I have h ad this thing apart numerous times and there is no wiring diagram in it. Bu t the sensor idea is a good one as the one next to the replaceable one does look a bit burned (again, the plastic cover, not the spades themselves)
Well you might try the internet for a schematic or wiring diagram. Dependi ng on price replacing suspect parts sometimes gets you going again. But an y good repair person will say that the first step is understanding how it w orks so you can acurately troubleshoot each component.
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On 3/26/2013 6:54 AM, snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net wrote:

I'll never understand those who suffer from HISI, Humor Irony Sarcasm Impairment. You tease them and they take it as a personal attack and believe you must hate them and wish death and destruction upon them. I've seen it in both Liberals and Conservatives so it's not confined to a single archetype but does seem to afflict the P.L.L.C.F. types more often. Bobby must actually believe I want bad things to happen to him and it's the most bizarre thing I've come across in this newsgroup but there are all kinds of people. When Bobby calls me or anyone else a troll, I have to laugh at the absurdity of the pot calling the kettle black. Heck, I just got back from a hundred mile round trip to fix a DSL problem for a commercial customer and I'm hurting like hell but I must take off again to fix a phone system at an auto parts store. Darn it, it's been chilly around here the last several days and my hair hurts. I haven't bit anyone's head off today so perhaps I'll find a few cockroaches to stomp while I giggle maniacally. o_O
TDD
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No, you were right. No make or model number suggests nothing to these fools, they go straight to diagnostic mode without plugging in.
Using a female name can prompt them to spend a week on the line trying to coax free the pertinent information, and another week after someone points out they've been trolled, again. -----
- gpsman
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wrote:

<No, you were right. No make or model number suggests nothing to these fools, they go straight to diagnostic mode without plugging in.>
What? Did you check Google before you made your troll accusation?
http://www.google.com/search?q=Amanda+Ripanykhazova
You appear to have gone straight to "troll accusation mode" without *you* plugging in and ended up calling some of your fellow newsgroupers fools because they tried to help someone.
I've already learned something new just from reading the on-topic thread, no matter how it started so there's already been value added in the thread. I always welcome the chance to see what diagnostic skills other posters have with topics I know about so I know whether to trust them with topics I am not familiar with. Several people have made some very good observations about potential problems, so even if the OP was a troll, there's good information being exchanged and archived.
With all the race-baiting political trolling and sock puppetry that goes on here, you sure picked an odd and on-topic post to get worked up enough to call other people fools who erred on the side of helpfulness and tried to help someone you labeled a troll. Sheesh. What a welcome.
<Using a female name can prompt them to spend a week on the line trying to coax free the pertinent information, and another week after someone points out they've been trolled, again.>
"Them?" Who do you mean by "them?" What you did: not checking Google before shouting "Troll!" is almost exactly what you accused others of doing (going straight to diagnostic mode) but worse. The people who tried to answer the question added value to the world and the Google archive. What value did YOU add? Just some name-calling and a dash of "Look at me, I am smarter than them!" Double sheesh.
Would you give me 10 cents for every legitimate post for help that didn't immediately include a make and model number? After all, that seems to be the measure you use to judge if someone's a troll. That and if the poster's female. Triple sheesh. I hope Norminn's reading this.
Remind me who the troll is again? (-: The guys who try to help or the guy who calls them fools for trying?
--
Bobby G.




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On Fri, 22 Mar 2013 10:47:22 -0400, "Robert Green"
Re: Problem with clothes dryer not getting hot enough: How do you test a sensor?:

No, but you did it for us; so no need to bother. Thanks.
It still looks like a troll.
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Thanks for that last paragraph Bobby, that was what I was looking for. I wi ll try it.
Curiously, next to the sensor which is a long pointed device that extends i nto the vent shaft, there IS another flat round electrical device which loo ks like some kind of secondary sensor and which also has burned wires (or w ire covers!) going to it. But that isnt a commonly replaceable part. I wi ll have to check the spade terminals on that now.
How come no one believes that with this unit, even though there doesn't app ear to be any sensor to tell when clothes are dry, a small amount of water feeds into the unit while drying to help prevent wrinkling etc? If that wa ter doesn't evap with the heat and get pumped away, you would expect clothe s to come out wetter than they went in? To me it seems obvious that it is the sensor or the element? But that is without applying any lateral thinki ng, which is why I came here. (even if I have to accept that there will be a certain amount of trolling coming from certain elements like VinnyB & GPS Man)
More likely is the pump in this condenser unit: Not a whole lot evaps like in a normal vented dryer, everything is pumped out. I wonder if there is a chance that the pump isn't working or isn't working properly. Unfortunately I cant easily disconnect the drain so see what is being pumped out during the dry cycle.
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wrote:

will try it.

into the vent shaft, there IS another flat round electrical device which l ooks like some kind of secondary sensor and which also has burned wires (or wire covers!) going to it.  But that isnt a commonly replaceable part.  I will have to check the spade terminals on that now.

ppear to be any sensor to tell when clothes are dry,  a small amount of w ater feeds into the unit while drying to help prevent wrinkling etc?
The reason people are having a hard time believing it is because most of them have never seen a dryer that uses water. This is indeed a feature of some modern high-end dryers, where steam is used for that. The idea is as you say to take wrinkles out. Now, I would think that would only happen if you select a special steam cycle. But some googling shows that apparently these dryers may introduce steam at some point in the drying cycle for wet clothes too.

Yes, with this type of dryer if the water doesn't turn to steam because the heat doesn't work, then I could see that happening.
To me it seems obvious  that it is the sensor or the element? But that is without applying any lateral thinking, which is why I came here. (even if I have to accept that there will be a certain amount of trolling coming from certain elements like VinnyB & GPSMan)
It could be a sensor, the element, the wiring, a control board, relay, etc.... The way I fix things like that is to get a circuit diagram. There is usually one of those in the unit itself, typically pasted on the back or maybe on the back of one of the main access panels, or sometimes just a folded up sheet stuck inside behind a panel. With that and a test meter I trace out the circuit to try to determine what is not working and why.

e in a normal vented dryer, everything is pumped out. I wonder if there is a chance that the pump isn't working or isn't working properly. Unfortunate ly I cant easily disconnect the drain so see what is being pumped out durin g the dry cycle.
I have no idea how that part of the dryer works, never seen one.
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wrote:

I will try it.

ds into the vent shaft, there IS another flat round electrical device which looks like some kind of secondary sensor and which also has burned wires ( or wire covers!) going to it.  But that isnt a commonly replaceable part.  I will have to check the spade terminals on that now.

appear to be any sensor to tell when clothes are dry,  a small amount of water feeds into the unit while drying to help prevent wrinkling etc?

ike in a normal vented dryer, everything is pumped out. I wonder if there i s a chance that the pump isn't working or isn't working properly. Unfortuna tely I cant easily disconnect the drain so see what is being pumped out dur ing the dry cycle.

The OP is not a troll.... he just has a machine that most of us are unfamilair with.
http://malberappliance.com/wd2000usermanual.pdf
As mentioned & discussed in a number of followup posts, this is a combo machine; it washes & dries in the same tub! I had the misfortune for having to used a machine of this type nearly 10 years ago in New Zealand.
It took over 3 HOURS to do a pair of jeans, some socks & rugby jersey and they still came out damp. IME these type of machine suck...even when they're working. I can imagine they're some sort of "green thinking" run amok.
But they probably do save a lot of energy... washing & drying take so long, one decides to do fewer loads. :(
Take a look at the manual... cycle times are shown on page 11. Read the Troubleshooting section...pages 16 & 17
There is a note on page 11 about load size during drying... the dry times range from 2 to 2.5 hours! On pages 16 & 17 is gives "tips" to improve drying performance. There is also a note that total cycle times could be as long as 4 HOURS!
It also reveals the tidbit that drying load capacity is 1/2 of the washing load capacity! WTF?
Question.. I often see washer capacity noted in 'lbs' . I this manual it talks about 11 lbs, I see US washer rated at 20 lbs. Are the these the weight of the dry clothes? I've also seen washers rated by cubic feet. What's the deal?
Clearly the OP's combo machine is "Suzie Homemaker" sized, cabinet is only 23-1/2" wide.
All in all....imo, this type of machine is a total POS. I seriously doubt that they save any energy in the long run, since they expose clothes to excessively long dry cycles and the attendant abrasive wear.
I think the problem with this thread.... a number of people think it's trolling & a number of people are applying "US style dryer" diagnosis to it. When in reality, it's a "real" machine & its performance sucks.
Link to explanation of condensing dryer... I didn't vet this info for 100% accuracy but it seems like a dehumidifier for clothes.
cheers Bob
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I think you are probably right but I have used this machine reasonably succ essfully for a decade or so in various incarnations and it has always more or less worked, even with the limitations you mention. What I need now isnt to read/ignore all the trolls here, but to use your & Optonline's diagnost ics on the parts and/or try to figure out whether that mystery grey wire fl oating around which may connect the secondary sensor to the fan is the prob lem.
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Look, I don't know how a condenser unit works but am reasonably sure it doe sn't work strictly by evaporation. The evap'ing going on is just a precurso r to pumping the evaporated water out. There is no (lint) trap to clean out . http://malberappliance.com/WD1000PartDrawingsCombined.pdf Similarly, there is no fuse to check IN this machine.
And there are only two drying cycles, one a heated one and the other (I nev er figured out what it is for and have never used it) a non-heated one whic h just tumbles. I assume this is for a minuscule amount of exceptionally de licate pieces. But I will go back and try it to see if there is ANY heatin g going on at all in that cycle as your suggestion is a good one in theory
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Actually I do kinda need a wiring diagram or at least some interpretation.
There is a mystery grey wire which comes out of the wiring loom and heads g enerally towards the rear terminal of that secondary sensor. As far as I c an see, it goes into the loom, going towards the rear of the unit. A grey w ire does emerge from the rear of the loom and connects to one terminal of t he dryer fan.
The sensor itself has clean terminals and the spade connectors are clean an d show no signs of arcing. But I wonder whether that grey wire does in fac t go to that rear terminal along with the wire which is already connected t o it? The wires coming off the spades do look a bit burned and frayed so I suppose the gray wire could come off it.
THe manufacturer's agent was clueless as to what this wire is and whether i t IS supposed to go somewhere. There are two other mystery wires, both or ange. One comes from the front panel and ends in a spade terminal which isn t connected to anything. There is also another orange wire (emerging from the loom) which also appears clipped off and doesnt look as if it was ever connected to anything
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wrote:

.

generally towards the rear terminal of that secondary sensor.  As far as I can see, it goes into the loom, going towards the rear of the unit. A gr ey wire does emerge from the rear of the loom and connects to one terminal of the dryer fan.

and show no signs of arcing.  But I wonder whether that grey wire does in fact go to that rear terminal along with the wire which is already connect ed to it?  The wires coming off the spades do look  a bit burned and fr ayed so I suppose the gray wire could come off it.

it IS supposed to go somewhere.   There are two other mystery wires, bot h orange. One comes from the front panel and ends in a spade terminal which isnt connected to anything.  There is also another orange wire (emerging from the loom) which also appears clipped off and doesnt look as if it was ever connected to anything
I don't know how anyone here can help you with any of that. We don't even know what kind of "sensor" it is. Can you get the sensor out easily? Does it have a part # on it? If so, you could try googling for the sensor part # and maybe you'll find some discussion somewhere about what kind of sensor it is, how it works, how to test it, etc.
As I said before, my approach with this kind of thing is to try to figure out the operational principles of the machine, ie what has to happen for voltage to go to whatever heats it and then figure out what is preventing it. Otherwise you're just going to start replacing parts without knowing if it's really bad or not. That approach works for a lot of repairmen that have an inventory of parts to swap. But for us, it can get expensive.
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