pool pump

Page 1 of 8  
Three months ago, we resurfaced the pool with Diamond Brite, replaced the pool filter, and installed a new pool pump. Ever since, the Pool Valet (caretaker) system has bubbled. (It did not bubble prior to the resurfacing project.) The pool contractor says, "Not my problem." The pool service company says, "Not my fault." I took the filter out to have a look at it. The filter contained enough sand and gravel to fill two 2 ounce bathroom cups. Plus, I could see loose gravel in the bottom of the filter tank. When I took the lid off of the pump, the first thing I noticed was the fact that the filter basket was mis-shapen from having partially melted. The little basket contained, as you can imagine, more gravel. With the basket out, I could reach into the hole and scoop up gravel. What can I do to A) rid the system of the gravel and B) get the pump to stop sucking air? PS-I don't care who's at fault. I just want the pool to properly function and stop sucking my wallet.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Nader Chalfoun and Christopher Trumble had an interesting Tucson cool tower story in the Spring 2005 U Oregon "Connector" architecture newsletter.
It's nice to avoid the energy of a swamp cooler blower. Can we also avoid the large structure (sacrificing architectural drama) and use less water, based on weather conditions, with constant comfort and better controls?
How about testing an alternative? Evaporate water inside a house and also run a small exhaust fan as needed to remove water vapor from the house. The most efficient corner for evaporative cooling in the ASHRAE 55-2004 comfort zone is at 80 F and w = 0.012, approximately.
We (not me, with recent flooding in PA :-) might turn on a small indoor swamp cooler with a thermostat when the indoor temp rises to 80 F and turn on an exhaust fan with a humidistat when the indoor RH rises to 54% (w = 0.012 at 80 F.)
With enough green plants in a house, the cooler might seldom turn on. With enough air leaks, the exhaust fan might seldom turn on.
Or run a soaker hose with pressurized water from a solenoid valve (which might come from a dead washing machine) over a floorslab in an existing house or under a floorslab with a vapor barrier under the hose in a new house. The slab's thermal mass might store coolth for more efficient cooling with cooler night air below the comfort temp near the floor.
During the day, a slow ceiling fan with a room temp thermostat and an occupancy sensor could provide efficient cooling as needed. The fan could provide comfort cooling and raise the acceptable RH all the way to 100% at 81 F with v = 0.5 m/s, according to ASHRAE-55's BASIC program, altho that might cause mold, on a continuous basis. The slab could also lower the mean radiant temp. A low-e ceiling and walls could radiate less to the slab when nobody's home, conserving stored coolth.
NREL says Tucson has an average humidity ratio wo = 0.0054 in June, with a 67.9/99.6 F daily min/max. An 80 F house with a 400 Btu/h-F thermal conductance and 4K Btu/h of internal gain might need (99.6-80)400+4K = 8240 Btu/h of cooling at 3 PM.
Evaporating P lb/h of water makes 1000P Btu/h, and cooling C cfm from 99.6 to 80 F to make up for required exhaust air takes about (99.6-80)C Btu/h, and 1000P = 8240+(99.6-80)C with 0.075 lb/ft^3 air and P = 60C0.075(wi-0.0054) and wi = 0.0120 makes P = 0.0297C and 29.7C = 8240 + 19.6C, so C = 816 cfm and P = 24.2 lb/h of water, with a net cooling of 8240/24.2 = 340 Btu/lb.
How many pounds of water per hour would a cool tower need to achieve the same 80 F at 54% RH inside this house?
Ps = e^(17.863-9621/(460+80)) = 1.047 "Hg at 80 F and 100% RH, so A ft^2 of 80 F damp floorslab in 80 F air at 54% RH might evaporate 0.1APs(1-0.54) = 0.048A lb/h of water, (mis)using an ASHRAE swimming pool formula, ie 502 ft^2 of slab might evaporate 24.2 lb/h.
At 81 F and 100% RH indoors, 1000P = (99.6-81)400+(99.6-81)C and wi = 0.0233 and P = 0.0808C, so 80.8C = 7440 + 18.6C, so C = 120 cfm and P = 9.7 lb/h with 7440/9.7 = 770 Btu/lb of net cooling. This could work even in August, when conventional swamp cooling wouldn't, with wo = 0.0117 and Tdp = 61 F. It might precool a slab faster and more efficiently than simple AC.
An 80 F slab under 67.9 F air with wo = 0.0054 and Pa = 29.921/(0.62198/wo+1) = 0.257 "Hg might evaporate 0.1A(Ps-Pa) = 0.0789A lb/h and lose (80-67.9)1.5A = 18.2A Btu/h of sensible heat, for a total of 97.1A Btu/h. With enough air, a 1000 ft^2 slab might lose 24hx8240Btu/h = 198K Btu in 198K/97100 = 2 hours on a June night, with 198K/158 = 1255 Btu/lb of net cooling.
Nick
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

The cooling tower idea has been around Arizona since the padre's came from Mexico and California. The UofA touted them in the mid 70's when the electric rates started jumping here in the desert. Most of the installations do not last more than 4 years. The salts left behind from the evaporating water are a real issue to take care of. City of Phoenix built two towers near Civic Plaza. They worked 2 summers and were then disconnected from water supplies. They were very pleasant to walk under during the June and July heat. When the Monsoons arrive they are worthless. The weather men all now give dew point readings all year long. Coolers will not work over a 40 F dew point. Water prices here in the desert are jumping more than 8% a year. It is hard to install something that is good for 60-90 days a year. I have had swamp coolers in the past. Being a person that measures everything I started keeping track of the costs. When my water bill exceeded my power bill there was a reckoning. I did not like the greasy feeling when drying off after a shower. I came to the realization that for a few dollars more I could have a/c all of the time. I only have one friend that has a cooler now, he has it on his garage. Does not use the water much cause of the rust on his tools. Great idea and it does work. They are a bitch to take care of over time. Just ask anyone who has worked with one. All the math in the world will not make it "feel right".
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

[About architectural students designing and testing cool towers.]

Drivel restored for the literati:
Evaporating P lb/h of water makes 1000P Btu/h, and cooling C cfm from 99.6 to 80 F to make up for required exhaust air takes about (99.6-80)C Btu/h, and 1000P = 8240+(99.6-80)C with 0.075 lb/ft^3 air and P = 60C0.075(wi-0.0054) and wi = 0.0120 makes P = 0.0297C and 29.7C = 8240 + 19.6C, so C = 816 cfm and P = 24.2 lb/h of water, with a net cooling of 8240/24.2 = 340 Btu/lb.
How many pounds of water per hour would a cool tower need to achieve the same 80 F at 54% RH inside this house?
Ps = e^(17.863-9621/(460+80)) = 1.047 "Hg at 80 F and 100% RH, so A ft^2 of 80 F damp floorslab in 80 F air at 54% RH might evaporate 0.1APs(1-0.54) = 0.048A lb/h of water (mis)using an ASHRAE swimming pool formula, ie 502 ft^2 of slab might evaporate 24.2 lb/h.
At 81 F and 100% RH indoors, 1000P = (99.6-81)400+(99.6-81)C and wi = 0.0233 and P = 0.0808C, so 80.8C = 7440 + 18.6C, so C = 120 cfm and P = 9.7 lb/h with 7440/9.7 = 770 Btu/lb of net cooling. This could work even in August, when conventional swamp cooling wouldn't, with wo = 0.0117 and Tdp = 61 F. It might be a fast way to cool a slab.
An 80 F slab under 67.9 F air with wo = 0.0054 and Pa = 29.921/(0.62198/wo+1) = 0.257 "Hg might evaporate 0.1A(Ps-Pa) = 0.0789A lb/h and lose (80-67.9)1.5A = 18.2A Btu/h of sensible heat, for a total of 97.1A Btu/h. With enough air, a 1000 ft^2 slab might lose 24hx8240Btu/h = 198K Btu in 198K/97100 = 2 hours on a June night, with 198K/158 = 1255 Btu/lb of net cooling.

But that's irrelevant, when considering _alternatives_ to cool towers, no?

That's disproved in the drivel above :-)

This indoor scheme is cheap, and some variations can work all year.

But this scheme is not a swamp cooler.

They can work together. A rational person who understood drivel might use this scheme when water costs less than running an AC, depending on weather and water and electrical costs. For instance, if water costs 0.2 cents/gallon (one Phoenix site mentions $1.50/1000 gallons), he might use AC in the last case if the water cooling cost ($0.002/(8x1255) = $2x10^-7/Btu) were less than the cost of an AC with a COP of 3 with an electrical cost of $C/kWh ($C/(3x3412) = $Cx10^-4/Btu), ie if C < $0.002, ie if electricity costs less than 0.2 cents per kWh, ie "use AC if the cost/kWh is less than the cost/gal." But electricity typically costs 10 cents/kWh, ie 50 times more.
Nick
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

You obviously have never kept one of these running year in year out. You obviously do not have allergies that are exacerbated by high humidity.
Have you done the calculations for all that humidity you have pumped into the home. Then try to remove it with the a/c? Sure you can save a buck or two maybe 90 days a year with swamp cooling. Considering all of the work it takes to keep the unit running at your peak efficiency. I will change a $6.00 filter every 30 days instead.
I understood the drivel, just decided to be brief. The numbers have little to do with reality in the desert. Where is the constant for dust storms?
Put one in your house and let me know how it is doing 5 years from now. Until you provide me with the 5 year data I will stick to my experience with them. New homes here are not even offered with a evap option. Even if you ask for it they say wait until the house closes and then install it. Most of the flexible duct work installed today would have serious problems delivering the air to all the rooms.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Obviously not.

What ductwork?
Nick
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Where is the economy in replacing wallpaper and multi cases of cleaner to remove all the mould from the corners of the rooms?

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Mold won't form below 60% RH.
Nick
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Mould may not form below 60% RH (debatable) but on the walls full of condensation the humidity may be 100%

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Learn more physics. Why would the walls have condensation if the room air has less than 60% RH and it's warmer outdoors?
Nick
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Because at night time the walls cool down and condense water like any other surface.
Get a brain and learn to think past your ignorance.
tit for tat?

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

People in Arizona don't seem to worry much about mold.
The RH has to be over 60% for 2 weeks to form it.
Nick
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Arizona has low humidity. Not really a good example
People here spend a lot of money and energy putting in heat exchangers and bathroom ventilation systems to keep the humidity down. Maybe some climates could use it.

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

It's an excellent climate for evaporative cooling.
Nick
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

He keeps coming back with this same subject. He needs to spend one summer in Yuma to prove his theories. Until he comes back with test results I will ignore him.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Never has any figure or cites to back his little snips and snipes.
50% troll

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
I have argued many times that mold needs a wet spot to get started, it does not spontaneously generate by extracting moisture directly from the air.
It is not so much the RH of the air, it is the humidity of the food source.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Lol, are you still trying to re-invent pyschrometrics Nick?
Is this the wetted floor below or the 'inverted Pool of Pine' above?
I met a friend of yours today, you have quoted him before as saying "60 is close enough to 100 for me"
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Nicks classics
" humidify your house by keeping your basement floor wet with a hose"
" Remove steam radiator vents for free humidity"
and 5689 more on google, now watch nick jump in to defend himself.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

No. Just trying to reinvent cool towers and swamp coolers :-) I'd really like to see someone try out some of these indoor evaporative schemes. No word from the U AZ profs, nor SBSE.

Dunno what you mean by that. Wetting the floor seems like a good idea in the southwest, with smart controls. Store coolth in a slab...

Drew Gillett? :-) I wonder what he's up to.
Nick
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Related Threads

    HomeOwnersHub.com is a website for homeowners and building and maintenance pros. It is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.