plug-in "permanent" house wiring

Page 2 of 3  
" snipped-for-privacy@wdeans.com" wrote:

Exactly what UPS are you looking at? You certainly don't need a UPS anywhere near that cost to run a single computer, particularly these days with LCD monitors. You're not trying to UPS a laser printer are you???

Unless it's a hybrid UPS with ferroresonant line conditioner, it's standby / float charging power consumption is pretty negligible.

The UPS to handle one computer will be about the size of a shoe box, and shouldn't be any issue to position along with the computer itself.

Not likely. My big UPS with my server rack in my garage is now about 10 years old, on it's original set of batteries and is showing no sign of any problems. The server rack loads it to about 15% capacity and just a couple weeks ago there was a power failure where it ran some 60 minutes on battery until I switched to generator power when the UPS reported 20 minutes of battery remaining.

Wildly exaggerated estimate, unless you're counting it's lifetime as 30 years and even then it's probably a high estimate.

What planet are you on buying new racks delivered? Racks are a dime a dozen used, often free and there is no reason to buy new unless you are building a showcase data center at which point you still need redundant UPSes, redundant generators, redundant air conditioning, access floors, etc.

It is by far, once you open your eyes to the real world and not some fantasy idea of a shiny enterprise data center.
Spend the $100 of a decent UPS at Fry's, Costco, etc., plug it in upstairs and get on with your life.
(The data centers I deal with have UPSes and generators rated in MW total capacity, and $250K/month electric bills)
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Pete C. wrote:

Hi, Let me guess, OP'er came here to argue because he does not have real something to do himself. If he has a wish list, dive in and do it instead of wasting time arguing with everyone. Military installations I used to work on went out some times with all that high tech redundancy. As far as I remember no system has 100% up time. Maybe 99.9999%
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Tony Hwang wrote:

The "five 9s" i.e. 99.999% is the gold standard used most places. Perhaps the military adds an extra decimal place. But that 0.001% is why you also mirror / RAID all disks, do daily backups and send them off site, have redundant power supplies on all your CPUs and storage, redundant network links, etc. Perhaps the OP is planning on hosting a pay net porn site that will loose money if it's down, in which case it should be hosted at a real data center anyway.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

"What planet do I come from?" Let's try a planet where people use numbers instead of emotions to make decisions.
A search for "rack mount ups" at froogle.com sorted by relevance prices the five most relevant at: $825, $440, $490, $504 and $650
I clicked on the first one and it has a "670W Nominal Output Power", and provides about 20 minutes of standby time at half load (325W) which hardly seems excessive. My "kill-a-watt" meter puts my power usage at just under 400W so I would get a little less than 20 minutes with new batteries in the unit and less once the batteries age.
If you take the cheapest unit at $440 and pretend the wiring cost was $140 you come to a $300 initial savings. If your discount rate is 8% and the project life span is 10 years $300*1.08^10=$647.58.
$647.58 saved based on initial cost alone
Then take a look at batteries: http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.asp?Submit=Suggested&DescriptionB-101 Notice the manufacturer states that they are good from 3-5 years. This makes since because it matches the life expectancy of lead-acid car batteries and also matches my personal experience.
If the cost of the batteries+shipping for the unit is $50+ (and it is more) two replacements over a 10 year life expectancy will add another $100 or so to the total cost.
We are up to $747.58. If the additional UPS uses only 20W and 10W for cooling 30W at $0.10 per kWh over 10 years comes to $263 which brings us to about $1010 difference. If the space is free and somehow I have overestimated by $260 we are still talking about a $750 difference.
If my math is wrong, please show me. Otherwise please help with my ORIGINAL question. ... and NO ... I am not switching from rack mount equipment to non-rack mount for a whole variety of reasons that are even more off the topic of home repair than I have been drawn to by the erroneous responses about UPS system TCO. Please answer the original electrical question!
PS: I do have systems at a hosting facility. These systems do not need to be at a colocation facility or they would be. JEEESH!!!!
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
" snipped-for-privacy@wdeans.com" wrote:

I use numbers as well, not emotions.

Rack mount UPS = same guts as non rack mount UPS in a rack mount case for 2X the price. Try a non rack mount UPS on a $20 rack shelf, that's what I've used for years and it performs perfectly.

Again, you are not making rational choices for the UPS, you're going on cosmetics. You can get a perfectly acceptable Trip-Lite brand 1KVA UPS at Costco for $100 add a rack shelf from another source for $20 and you're done.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.asp?Submit=Suggested&DescriptionB-101
First off, *never* buy replacement UPS batteries from the UPS manufacturer, they are severely overpriced. Get replacement UPS batteries from a local wholesale battery distributor, where they are much cheaper for the same battery. I've used Mid State Battery in the past and a set for a UPS rarely exceeded $40 with tax. The UPS is out of warranty at that point so it's not like you have to use the "branded" batteries to maintain warranty.

Car batteries operate under very different conditions from UPS batteries. Car batteries cycle from freezing temperatures to 150 degree temperatures and back in the winter. Car batteries don't sit on a float charger most of their life. Car batteries are called upon to produce several hundred amps for 30 seconds and then recharge. There is pretty much no valid comparison between UPS battery life and car battery life.

Again the life expectancy you are going by is not correct. It may be a good number for a large corporation to use when replacing batteries in hundreds of UPSes, but it's silly for a home user where you have a couple UPSes and can easily load / runtime test them annually. As I noted, the batteries in my big (1.42KVA) UPS are a decade old and still performing perfectly under load.

The standby consumption is the only place you're even close to reality, and the $2.19/mo is pretty insignificant.

If you want to waste money for some sort of ego / cosmetic reasons, by all means feel free to do so, certainly people waste money of far more silly things. Don't try to "cook the books" to try to justify the extra cost for cosmetics as some sort of savings though.
My central server, network gear and a few other extraneous items along with the big UPS are in a standard equipment rack in my garage. The rack is used and was free, most of the equipment in it is not rack mount and is on rack mount shelves, though the main ethernet switch is rack mount.
As for the original question:
NEC Article 645.10 "Disconnecting means" indicates that a means of disconnecting power to all electronic equipment in the information technology room must be provided as well as similar disconnecting means for HVAC and closing smoke / fire dampers, and the controls must be grouped and located at the principle exit doors.
NEC Article 645.11 indicates that a UPS of 750VA or lower capacity installed within the information technology room is exempt from article 645.10 disconnecting means requirements.
These are the sections of the NEC that reference UPS systems, and clearly aren't intended to be applied to a residential environment. There are other articles for separately derived systems and multiple power sources, none of which are directly applicable.
Ultimately it comes down to the discretion of your local building official (AHJ) to interpret and apply the code and their own expertise to determine what they will require / accept. Since there is no directly applicable NEC code you are entirely at their mercy as to what they'll let you do.
The AHJ may simply insist you use a separate UPS so that the disconnecting means are clearly recognizable to the local fire department responding to your server fire. They may accept the remote outlets if the connections are entirely isolated in separate conduit from the regular household circuits. It's entirely up to the AHJ and nobody on the 'net can give you the precise answer.
The NEC is available online for your review, someone posted the link here recently I believe.

That's nice. Do you have a backup generator to keep things online for more than the ~20 minutes of the UPS(es)? If not, that's a better place to spend money than purty racks.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Greetings Pete,
Your math is wrong. It uses prices for non-rackmount equipment and generics. This is not the class of equipment which I am using for this installation. I know you have strong pro-generic anti-rackmount feelings but please try to put them aside. This is not what all my clients like to see me use even in the dev environment and they are right by definition.
Insisting on rack mount / name brand equipment does not equate to cooking the books. Period. Your entire argument stems from the fact that I could do it cheaper if I used non-rack mount generics. You have not pointed out a math error! Lawyers could probably drastically reduce their clothing / dry cleaning costs if they wore jeans and a white t-shirt but clients wouldn't like it. When client perception is taken into account it is cheaper to pay for the suits.
Yes. I have a backup generator and speaking of backup generators with "central UPS" I can simply plug this generator into the power inlet in the basement through the basement window (indirectly by plugging the central UPS into the generator). Without "central UPS" I have to run the generator cord in through the basement window and then snake it up three flights of stairs with extension cords!
That said, thank you for your NEC notes.
--William
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
" snipped-for-privacy@wdeans.com" wrote:

Bull. Trip-Lite is not a generic brand, and as I noted, the rack mount UPSes from a given company are the same guts as the non rack mount versions, only at a much higher price. If you don't want to recognize that reality, you're probably the type to also buy $100 power cords to make your CD player sound better.

Your idea that non-rack mount equipment is somehow a different class is truly laughable. Rack mount has nothing whatsoever to do with the quality of a piece of equipment, it is only a mounting standard and as I noted from most any given manufacturer the exact same guts are available in rack mount and non rack mount versions.

If your trying to dress a set to impress clients, admit that it is a cosmetics issue, don't try to justify the cosmetics with distorted and just plain false calculations.

Trying to make it appear that there is some advantage other than cosmetic to buying overpriced rack mount equipment is indeed cooking the books.

I have pointed out a common sense error. If you need to try to make things cosmetically flashy to try to impress technologically ignorant clients that is an entirely different issue.

There you go, the entire basis for your rack mount fetish - cosmetics to try to impress clients.

That's pretty lame, I have my generator located next to my detached shop and connected at my main panel with an approved interlock kit. I don't have to drag any cords anywhere to bring it online. Sounds like a better area for you to invest your time, effort and money in than running a UPS line upstairs. Get a standalone UPS for upstairs and put it behind a nice brushed anodized aluminum rack mount filler panel.

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

He should also avoid showing his setup to his technologically sophisticated clients. He doesn't want one saying "Why did you run a circuit all the way from the basement instead of just adding a new UPS in the attic? That would be cheaper and give more run time."
    Dave
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
wrote:

Then why is my one-computer UPS so hot if I leave it on while not using the computer. Not just in one spot, but over the entire top surface and some of the sides.

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
mm wrote:

Put a 7W night light in a closed shoe box all day and see how hot it gets. Look at a 10W soldering iron melting solder. Heat will build over time from even a quite small source if the package design doesn't provide very good dissipation. My main UPS runs very cool, buy it does have a full time fan at low speed, which switched to full speed when the UPS switches to inverter.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

You chose two examples which were both invalid. The tip of the 10W soldering iron has a tiny surface area to dissipate the heat from. In the enclosed example you don't talk about dissipating heat but the heat trapped in the box. mm says the entire surface area of his UPS is hot and dissipating heat. A better example would be that even a 40W fluorescent tube is not hot to the touch.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
" snipped-for-privacy@wdeans.com" wrote:

Perfectly valid examples of how even a small amount of heat generated can build over time if it's not being dissipated. I don't know what planet you're on, but a 40W fluorescent tube most certainly does get hot with extended use in a normal environment. Not as hot as a 40W incandescent, but far hotter than ambient.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

What make and model? There *are* true UPSes that convert line current to DC and then back to AC continuously, running the inverter all the time. The supposed advantage is that there's no discontinuity in the output waveform when the input line voltage goes away, but these UPSes are larger and heavier and dissipate significant power continuously.
Or you could have a unit with a ferroresonant voltage regulator, which wastes about 20% of its full load output rating in heat continuously.
But most people use standby power supplies that switch on only when AC fails. These dissipate little power when on standby (just enough to charge the batteries and run the electronics). Voltage regulation can be provided by tap-switching transformers, again with little heat generated (some SPSes include this function).
I have a variety of APC SPS units, and none are more than slightly warm to the touch when operating in standby.
    Dave
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Wed, 10 Oct 2007 17:55:39 +0000 (UTC), snipped-for-privacy@cs.ubc.ca (Dave Martindale) wrote:

It's a Tripplite, but I don't know the model. (It's on the floor and one of the cords from something plugged into it is too short to pull the UPS out from under the desk, so it's very hard to see the model number.) It's about 8" high by 5"wide by 7" deep and iirc has one 4, or 6, AH battery inside. It has two tiny slide switches and 3 tiny lights at the top front. Much harder to turn on and off than the earlier one that had a big rocker switch at the very top.

Bought mine used without a manual, but I think I dl'd the manual from the manuf. website. But that might be on the previous harddrive.

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Maybe, but you won'thave two ups's using electricity all the time. OTOH, I turn off my UPS when I'm not at the computer. If I don't the thing gets pretty hot, all wasted energy.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
deans,
I'm guessing that you know how to run wire, install outlet boxes and wire outlets so my advice is to be sure that the attic outlet has a "red" cover plate. Red is used to indicate the likelihood of electrical current when the "power" is off. I'd put an duplex outlet in the basement and one in the attic with wire (14 ga.?) running between them via the conduit. Put red cover plates on both outlets and plug the output of the UPS into the basement outlet. Voila, you now have UPS available at both outlets. Since you are interested in code, run this idea by the boys in town hall before you do it. I bet red cover plates is all you need.
Dave M.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

You don't want to have a male plug to male plug extension. Instead of a duplex in the basement, you'd use a motor plug, which is an outlet(inlet), that has male prongs to receive the female end of your extension cord
Voila, you

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Perhaps the installation of a flanged inlet at the UPS location would give you the ability to use permanent wiring in the wall. I'm not sure what wire size you need, but they come in 15 and 20 amp and perhaps 30 amp straight blade and twistlock.. Depending on the inlet configuration that you use, you might need to make your own cord set-up to connect the flanged inlet to your UPS. At the third floor location you could just have a regular receptacle or something different like a twistlock to indicate that it's special.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Thank you very much David, John, and RMB for attempting to help me create a NEC complaint installation. I am going to proceed with project "central UPS" as one poster put it. I am going to use a red plate and a label from a labeling machine which states the receptacle is connected to the basement UPS. I will use twist lock flanged connectors (in the basement) and 12 AWG wire throughout.
One line explanations for hecklers: ====================================Anti-rackmount coalition: I have clients because I give them what they want. People who don't believe in discount rates: The miracle of compound interest is real and I don't actually mind your disbelief because someone has to pay all that interest. UPS TCO math: I elaborated in my Pete C. reply post. Derby Dad: I'll be sure and eat the high-fiber box to after consuming the cereal contained therein.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Related Threads

    HomeOwnersHub.com is a website for homeowners and building and maintenance pros. It is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.