Oven is in. Some more questions.

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I installed my wall oven. I ended up having to install the junction box in the cabinet below. It works fine.
A couple of questions. I installed the oven on 2x4 runners layed flat on th e plywood top that separated the oven chanber from the cabinet below where the junction box is. I trilled a hole the diameter of the bx armor to run t he oven wire through to the junction box. (I think the hole was 1 1/8. Is t here any problem running the bx armor cable throught he plywood like that? The junction box is as deep as I could get it but is only about 3 inches fr om the top of the 2x4 runner. It is attached well and a rght angle clamp is used for the oven cable to junction box connection. I was a little confuse d becasue the directions say to use 2x4 runners or if a solid bottom is use d, cut a 6x10 hole int he bottom. I did not cut a hole but used the runners .
Anyhow, the other oven was rated at 6 kw I think. The breaker I think is 30 or 40. My new oven is 3.6 kw. Should I replace the breaker with a smaller breaker? What would be the appropriate size?
I appreciate it!
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On Monday, April 8, 2013 8:44:07 AM UTC-5, snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com wrote:

n the cabinet below. It works fine.

the plywood top that separated the oven chanber from the cabinet below wher e the junction box is. I trilled a hole the diameter of the bx armor to run the oven wire through to the junction box. (I think the hole was 1 1/8. Is there any problem running the bx armor cable throught he plywood like that ? The junction box is as deep as I could get it but is only about 3 inches from the top of the 2x4 runner. It is attached well and a rght angle clamp is used for the oven cable to junction box connection. I was a little confu sed becasue the directions say to use 2x4 runners or if a solid bottom is u sed, cut a 6x10 hole int he bottom. I did not cut a hole but used the runne rs.

30 or 40. My new oven is 3.6 kw. Should I replace the breaker with a smalle r breaker? What would be the appropriate size?

One more thing. I have been reading about arc fault breakers and how they c an keep a house fire from starting. (especially in a kitchen). If I need to get a lower rated breaker for the oven, would an arc fault breaker be a go od idea? Also, my wiring to the ovens in my house tie the white neutral wir e to ground. I assume I could still use an arc fault breaker?
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On Apr 8, 9:55 am, snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com wrote:

in the cabinet below. It works fine.

n the plywood top that separated the oven chanber from the cabinet below wh ere the junction box is. I trilled a hole the diameter of the bx armor to r un the oven wire through to the junction box. (I think the hole was 1 1/8. Is there any problem running the bx armor cable throught he plywood like th at? The junction box is as deep as I could get it but is only about 3 inche s from the top of the 2x4 runner. It is attached well and a rght angle clam p is used for the oven cable to junction box connection. I was a little con fused becasue the directions say to use 2x4 runners or if a solid bottom is used, cut a 6x10 hole int he bottom. I did not cut a hole but used the run ners.

s 30 or 40. My new oven is 3.6 kw. Should I replace the breaker with a smal ler breaker? What would be the appropriate size?

can keep a house fire from starting. (especially in a kitchen). If I need to get a lower rated breaker for the oven, would an arc fault breaker be a good idea? Also, my wiring to the ovens in my house tie the white neutral w ire to ground. I assume I could still use an arc fault breaker?
AFCI is not required and I would not shell out the bucks for one for an oven. With an oven you have a direct wire run and I would think a lot less chance of some kind of arc fault happening, compared to daisy chained outlets for example, with all kinds of connection points.
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On 4/8/2013 7:55 AM, snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com wrote:

Does the nameplate give a max branch circuit rating? How about the installation instructions? Is a cooktop on the same circuit?
Without further information I would use a 20A breaker.
[For ovens like this you may be able to use a larger breaker - 210.19-A-3]

It is a 220V circuit. The common AFCIs are for 120V circuits. If 220V AFCIs are available they are likely to be quite expensive.
The NEC does not require kitchen receptacles be AFCI protected. (Most of them are GFCI protected.) Originally bedroom circuits had to be AFCI protected - probably the most likely place to start a fire where an AFCI would help.

If the oven supply circuit does not have a neutral (and was properly installed originally) the oven ground can be connected to the supply neutral.
If the supply includes a ground the oven ground must be connected to the supply ground.
Connecting the oven ground to the supply neutral can result in AFCI trips (in particular if the oven contacts a 'ground' some other way).
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On Apr 8, 9:44 am, snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com wrote:

n the cabinet below. It works fine.

the plywood top that separated the oven chanber from the cabinet below wher e the junction box is. I trilled a hole the diameter of the bx armor to run the oven wire through to the junction box. (I think the hole was 1 1/8. Is there any problem running the bx armor cable throught he plywood like that ?
No
The junction box is as deep as I could get it but is only about 3 inches from the top of the 2x4 runner. It is attached well and a rght angle clamp is used for the oven cable to junction box connection. I was a little confused becasue the directions say to use 2x4 runners or if a solid bottom is used, cut a 6x10 hole int he bottom. I did not cut a hole but used the runners.
Sounds perfectly normal. The only exception is that the install directions say the box is supposed to be min 5" below and you apparently have it at 3". But I don't see any problem with it and would be OK with it like that in my house.

30 or 40. My new oven is 3.6 kw. Should I replace the breaker with a smalle r breaker? What would be the appropriate size?

3600/240 = 15 amps
Max current should be 80% of the breaker. 20 * .8 . So a 20A breaker is the minimum. But provided you have the appropriate wire size for the existing breaker, I would not change it, a future oven might take more power.
When I replaced my ovens one thing I noticed was the new ones take longer to heat up. I guess you've discovered why. For some reason, the new ones have smaller elements.
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snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com;3043228 Wrote: > I installed the oven on 2x4 runners layed flat on the plywood top that > separated the oven chanber from the cabinet below where the junction box > is. I trilled a hole the diameter of the bx armor to run the oven wire > through to the junction box. (I think the hole was 1 1/8. Is there any > problem running the bx armor cable throught he plywood like that?
I don't see a problem with that. In my building, the armored cable to my stoves comes out of a hole about that size in the floor. Those cables used to be hard wired to the terminal blocks of my old stoves, but when I replaced the stoves with ones with self cleaning ovens, I installed range cords on each stove.
snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com;3043228 Wrote: >

> inches from the top of the 2x4 runner. It is attached well and a rght > angle clamp is used for the oven cable to junction box connection. I was > a little confused becasue the directions say to use 2x4 runners or if a > solid bottom is used, cut a 6x10 hole int he bottom. I did not cut a > hole but used the runners..

I expect the reason they suggested the large rectangular hole is because most people would not have hard wired their oven to the junction box like you did. Most would have used a range cord and receptacle instead; like this:
[image:
http://images.lowes.com/product/converted/050946/050946110066lg.jpg ]
[image:
http://www.hammerzone.com/archives/elect/appliances/range1/cord/elrgpc18a.jpg ]
You can buy both the range cord and the receptacle at any hardware store. You wire the receptacle into the junction box and the range cord to the terminal block of the oven, and then just plug the oven in to the receptacle very much like plugging in a TV set; only a bigger plug and a bigger receptacle. That way, taking the oven out (for repairs or whatever) is much easier.
The plug on a range cord is considerably larger than the plug on a 120 VAC appliance, and so you do need a larger opening for the plug to pass through, but even 4 inches square should be ample. I expect they suggested a 6 by 10 inch opening so that the entire receptacle can go through the hole if necessary, but I don't see where you'd ever need to do that in your case.
snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com;3043228 Wrote: >

That sounds reasonable. A heating element is a resistor, so you can say:
Watts = Volts X Amps. If you have 240 volts and 40 amp breakers, that gives you 9600 watts, which provides all the power the oven needs with a 50% safety factor which is reasonable. Even if you only had 30 amp breakers, you'd still have 7200 watts available to the stove and it's convenience outlets, if any.
snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com;3043228 Wrote: >

> the breaker with a smaller breaker? What would be the appropriate size?

I expect they're 40 amp breakers meant for an apartment size stove.
There are different sizes of electric stoves. A standard residential stove is 30 inches wide and will be rated at 50 amps. An apartment size stove will be 24 inches wide and rated at 40 amps. But, because the NEC doesn't have a prong and receptacle configuration for 240 volts and 40 amps, you use the same 240 Volt 50 amp rated cord and receptacle for both a residential size stove and an apartment size stove. So, if you decide to install a range cord on your wall oven, it'll be rated for 50 amps too. If you live in a condo that used to be an apartment block, I expect that's why they provided 50 amp wiring to the stove location, but only 40 amp breakers in the panel. They did that in my building, too.
I personally don't see any problem going down to 30 amp breakers cuz they would provide you with approximately 7200 watts of power, which is way more than you need, even with convenience outlets on the wall oven where you could be plugging in power pigs like a toaster, electric kettle or coffee maker or even a microwave oven.

> ground.
You should really change that if you can. Apparantly, because of a shortage of copper during WWII, they allowed that in the US electrical code at the time, but you really should connect the white wire of your cable to the middle screw of the terminal block in the oven and connect the armored cable or the aluminum strip or any ground wire inside the cable to the chassis of the wall oven to make a separate ground connection. Or, at least that's my understanding of how it would be done. I'll let any electricians in here chime in on that one. I've heard that they make kits of some sort that you can buy at applaince parts stores in the US to change that wiring to a separate neutral and ground wire connections, so you may want to ask about that at your local appliance parts store.
I don't think that was ever done in Canada, and I've never seen that on any of the electric stoves I've ever had to work on.
I've never heard of an arc fault breaker, so that question is above my pay grade.
--
nestork


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Most people would follow the install instructions which say the oven is to be direct wired in. It has a metal armored cable and you connect that to a junction box. That is what the OP did and he did it correctly.

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I would bet it's also a violation of the UL listing and code compliance of the oven when you remove the supplied direct connection that is the manufacturers install method and replace it with a plug/cord.

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What exactly is an apartment size stove and why would you expect that to have anything to do with this guy's wall oven?

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All of which is irrelevant. The install manual for his OVEN says it's to be direct wired, which he did.

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The typical oven has directions for connecting it as either a 4 wire, which is what is done in new circuits that are run today , or as a 3 wire if that is the older existing wiring, where code permits it. No kit required.

Apparenty so is installing the oven.
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' snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net[_2_ Wrote:

The manufacturer doesn't have to supply a range cord so he didn't. But, if it were my wall oven, I'd use a range cord. That way, when I find out that I need the arms of an octopus to do any repairs on that thing entirely from the front, I have the option of taking it out of the wall and doing the repair in relative comfort. That's the advantage of having a range cord.
' snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net[_2_ Wrote:

For the second time, the manufacturer's recommended installation method is designed to save the manufacturer $5 on a range cord. That's why it's recommended by the manufacturer. It saves him 5 bucks!!!
Besides, if his oven only draws 3600 watts (or 15 amps) why would it be a code violation to use a range cord and receptacle rated at 50 amps to connect it? It might be overkill, but it's certainly safe.
' snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net[_2_ Wrote:

An apartment size stove is one of these: [image:
http://www.northlandappliance.ca/images/w/500/c/1/r/9a1f31b9f46e.JPG ]
It's 24 inches wide instead of the normal 30 inches, and so it has three 6" surface elements and one 8" surface element instead of the more common two 6" and two 8" elements. And, it has a smaller oven and smaller bake and broil heating elements. And, normally the fuses or breakers for it will be 40 amp instead of 50 amp.
The guy didn't know if his breakers were 30 amp or 40 amp, so I told him 40 amp breakers were standard for apartment size stoves, and so there was a good chance they'd be 40 amp.
' snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net[_2_ Wrote:

Yeah, too bad he didn't ask about that in here first. The good thing is that he can still change it if he wants.
--
nestork

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On 4/9/2013 1:55 AM, nestork wrote:

In the U.S., no manufacturer supplies a range cord, possibly because we use two types so they wouldn't know which to furnish. Wall ovens in the U.S. are not designed to accept range cords. In the U.S. it is a Nec violation to alter the design of an approved electrical device. The code requires the oven to be installed as per manufacturers instructions.

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On 4/8/2013 12:56 PM, nestork wrote:

In the U.S. Ranges must now be cord and plug attached, but there is no such provision for wall ovens. They are provided with a whip, which connects to the feeder inside a junction box.

If the OP has a 4 wire feeder, he should connect the oven accordingly , If he only has a 3 wire feeder, he should leave the ground and neutral connected together as is shows in the instructions.

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On 4/8/2013 12:56 PM, nestork wrote:

The cut a rectangular hole if you don't use runners is very likely for cooling.
Most people wire a wall oven per the manufacturers drawing just like the OP did.

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Ding, ding, ding..... I think we have a winner here. In reading the question about cutting the hole, I was thinking of it in context of making the connection for the electrical box. But after reading what you posted I went back and looked at the original install instructions that the OP provided:
"If a solid bottom is used instead of runners, a 6" x 10" rectangle must be cut out of the bottom (See Fig. 1) for optimum performance and proper air circulation."
So, he installed it with runners and the hole is not required.

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On Monday, April 8, 2013 8:44:07 AM UTC-5, snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com wrote:

n the cabinet below. It works fine.

the plywood top that separated the oven chanber from the cabinet below wher e the junction box is. I trilled a hole the diameter of the bx armor to run the oven wire through to the junction box. (I think the hole was 1 1/8. Is there any problem running the bx armor cable throught he plywood like that ? The junction box is as deep as I could get it but is only about 3 inches from the top of the 2x4 runner. It is attached well and a rght angle clamp is used for the oven cable to junction box connection. I was a little confu sed becasue the directions say to use 2x4 runners or if a solid bottom is u sed, cut a 6x10 hole int he bottom. I did not cut a hole but used the runne rs.

30 or 40. My new oven is 3.6 kw. Should I replace the breaker with a smalle r breaker? What would be the appropriate size?

I thought my elements looked much smaller. Also, when I turned my old oven on I could hear a fan blowing. My new oven has no such fan.
I have # 6 wire to my current oven. I was not sure if it was a safety hazar d or violation to have a larger breaker than the oven required in case ther e was a short in the oven or something.
The reason I coul not get it lower two more inches is that it would have ca use interference with a sliding drawer.
So, no need to cut the hole?
I appreciate everyone's help on here!
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On Apr 8, 2:03 pm, snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com wrote:

in the cabinet below. It works fine.

n the plywood top that separated the oven chanber from the cabinet below wh ere the junction box is. I trilled a hole the diameter of the bx armor to r un the oven wire through to the junction box. (I think the hole was 1 1/8. Is there any problem running the bx armor cable throught he plywood like th at? The junction box is as deep as I could get it but is only about 3 inche s from the top of the 2x4 runner. It is attached well and a rght angle clam p is used for the oven cable to junction box connection. I was a little con fused becasue the directions say to use 2x4 runners or if a solid bottom is used, cut a 6x10 hole int he bottom. I did not cut a hole but used the run ners.

s 30 or 40. My new oven is 3.6 kw. Should I replace the breaker with a smal ler breaker? What would be the appropriate size?

n on I could hear a fan blowing. My new oven has no such fan.

ard or violation to have a larger breaker than the oven required in case th ere was a short in the oven or something.
Unless the installation manual or a plate on the eqpt says you have to use a certain amperage breaker or they spec a max, I believe you are OK with the larger breaker, since the conductors are rated for it.

cause interference with a sliding drawer.

It's hooked up. The oven is installed and working, no? What purpose would some hole serve? Time to get a six pack and relax.

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On Monday, April 8, 2013 8:44:07 AM UTC-5, snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com wrote:

n the cabinet below. It works fine.

the plywood top that separated the oven chanber from the cabinet below wher e the junction box is. I trilled a hole the diameter of the bx armor to run the oven wire through to the junction box. (I think the hole was 1 1/8. Is there any problem running the bx armor cable throught he plywood like that ? The junction box is as deep as I could get it but is only about 3 inches from the top of the 2x4 runner. It is attached well and a rght angle clamp is used for the oven cable to junction box connection. I was a little confu sed becasue the directions say to use 2x4 runners or if a solid bottom is u sed, cut a 6x10 hole int he bottom. I did not cut a hole but used the runne rs.

30 or 40. My new oven is 3.6 kw. Should I replace the breaker with a smalle r breaker? What would be the appropriate size?

Ok, second guessing myself. My supply wire to the oven had a white, red, bl ack and ground wire. The oven had these as well. I tied the white neutral t o ground, as this looked like the way it was done with the oven I took out.
Is this acceptable?
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On Apr 9, 12:06 pm, snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com wrote:

in the cabinet below. It works fine.

n the plywood top that separated the oven chanber from the cabinet below wh ere the junction box is. I trilled a hole the diameter of the bx armor to r un the oven wire through to the junction box. (I think the hole was 1 1/8. Is there any problem running the bx armor cable throught he plywood like th at? The junction box is as deep as I could get it but is only about 3 inche s from the top of the 2x4 runner. It is attached well and a rght angle clam p is used for the oven cable to junction box connection. I was a little con fused becasue the directions say to use 2x4 runners or if a solid bottom is used, cut a 6x10 hole int he bottom. I did not cut a hole but used the run ners.

s 30 or 40. My new oven is 3.6 kw. Should I replace the breaker with a smal ler breaker? What would be the appropriate size?

black and ground wire. The oven had these as well. I tied the white neutral to ground, as this looked like the way it was done with the oven I took ou t.

Technically, no. Why didn't you follow the install instructions? They show it for connection to either:
4 wire, ie with ground which is code today for new circuits and apparently what you have. 4 wires from oven get connected to 4 wires of cable.
3 wire, which is the older method. IF you had that, then in most cases, you would be allowed to change the oven and re-connect the new one, tying the neutral and ground together, instead of pulling a new 4 wire cable.
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On 4/9/2013 12:06 PM, snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com wrote:

plywood top that separated the oven chanber from the cabinet below where the junction box is. I trilled a hole the diameter of the bx armor to run the oven wire through to the junction box. (I think the hole was 1 1/8. Is there any problem running the bx armor cable throught he plywood like that? The junction box is as deep as I could get it but is only about 3 inches from the top of the 2x4 runner. It is attached well and a rght angle clamp is used for the oven cable to junction box connection. I was a little confused becasue the directions say to use 2x4 runners or if a solid bottom is used, cut a 6x10 hole int he bottom. I did not cut a hole but used the runners.

or 40. My new oven is 3.6 kw. Should I replace the breaker with a smaller breaker? What would be the appropriate size?

and ground wire. The oven had these as well. I tied the white neutral to ground, as this looked like the way it was done with the oven I took out.

It is not. The ground and neutrals must be separated then connected accordingly. The only time you can leave the ground connected to the neutral is if your supply feeder is only 3 wire
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plywood top that separated the oven chanber from the cabinet below where the junction box is. I trilled a hole the diameter of the bx armor to run the oven wire through to the junction box. (I think the hole was 1 1/8. Is there any problem running the bx armor cable throught he plywood like that? The junction box is as deep as I could get it but is only about 3 inches from the top of the 2x4 runner. It is attached well and a rght angle clamp is used for the oven cable to junction box connection. I was a little confused becasue the directions say to use 2x4 runners or if a solid bottom is used, cut a 6x10 hole int he bottom. I did not cut a hole but used the runners.

or 40. My new oven is 3.6 kw. Should I replace the breaker with a smaller breaker? What would be the appropriate size?

black and ground wire. The oven had these as well. I tied the white neutral to ground, as this looked like the way it was done with the oven I took out.

...unless the instructions say otherwise.
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On 4/9/2013 8:13 PM, snipped-for-privacy@attt.bizz wrote:

the plywood top that separated the oven chanber from the cabinet below where the junction box is. I trilled a hole the diameter of the bx armor to run the oven wire through to the junction box. (I think the hole was 1 1/8. Is there any problem running the bx armor cable throught he plywood like that? The junction box is as deep as I could get it but is only about 3 inches from the top of the 2x4 runner. It is attached well and a rght angle clamp is used for the oven cable to junction box connection. I was a little confused becasue the directions say to use 2x4 runners or if a solid bottom is used, cut a 6x10 hole int he bottom. I did not cut a hole but used the runners.

or 40. My new oven is 3.6 kw. Should I replace the breaker with a smaller breaker? What would be the appropriate size?

black and ground wire. The oven had these as well. I tied the white neutral to ground, as this looked like the way it was done with the oven I took out.

They are not going to
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On 4/9/2013 9:25 PM, RBM wrote:

Sorry, I misunderstood your statement. These provisions are per Nec rules. There are some appliances that do require a four wire circuit only, and make no allowance for an existing three wire feeder.
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