NM cable in garage?

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Except when the state legislature empowers the state building commission to adopt appropriate codes, and the building commission adopts the NEC. Or however it works in your state.

To each their own. Personally, I like the benefits of living in a densely populated area. One of the downsides is that my neighbor's actions can have an impact on me, so I want a minimum standard enforced to reduce the risks involved.
But even in a sparsely populated area, your neighbor's electrical wiring can cause a fire that could threaten your property. Or if you have a metallic water distribution system, your neighbor's electrical wiring can create an electricution hazard for you when working on your water pipes.
Cheers, Wayne
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Wayne Whitney wrote:

The NEC is still not law, the NEC is simply adopted as a reference standard, usually with local modifications.

What are the benefits of living in a densely populated area?

How does your neighbor's home wiring impact you?

That is a very tenuous connection. There is a much higher probability of the cigarette tossed from a car driving down your street starting a brush fire that threatens your property. Or even flaming squirrels falling from the power lines starting a fire that threatens your property (documented cases).

Extraordinarily unlikely, since your water supply pipes are supposed to be specifically grounded, and are further grounded if they are metal pipes buried in the ground.
Basically you're trying to push codes on others based on your own unfounded insecurities. You worry about your home, and leave the worrying about my home to me.
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Greater ease of finding people with similar interests, greater cultural resources, less driving and more walking.

I gave two examples: starting a fire or energizing my metallic water pipes.

Actually it can and does happen every year. At each electrical service entrance the metallic water piping is used as a grounding electrode and connected to the service neutral. So at any electrical service entrance, while most of current returns to the transformer on the service neutral as intended, a good portion of it returns through the metallic water piping system and other people's neutral service conductors.
Now if someone loses their own neutral service conductor, they may never notice it as all the current can still return to the transformer through the metallic water piping system. Then if you are working on your water piping and disconnect the piping between the water service lateral and the connection to the grounding electrode conductor, you have a voltage between the two pieces of pipe. If you bridge that gap, you can get shocked or electrocuted.

As long as your actions can affect me, in a functioning society we need minimum standards of behavior.
It's been a pleasant discussion.
Cheers, Wayne
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Wayne Whitney wrote:

The Internet takes care of that nicely without suffering the misery of being stuck in a densely populated area.

Not for any culture I wish to interact with.

I live far from a densely populated area and I drive a pretty minimal amount.

And both were failed examples of unsubstantiated paranoia.

Not the way you seem to think. Find me a citation for a case where a person eas electrocuted by *their* water plumbing due to an electrical fault in a *neighbor's* house.

Metallic water piping has not been in common use as a ground for many years, separate 8' ground rods and more recently two separate 8' ground rods are used. The metallic plumbing is however normally bonded to the electrical ground.

Absolutely false. Ground currents on a properly operating residential electrical system may run a few tens of milliamps, while the neutral current is tens of amps. A 1/1000th of the total return current does not even come close to a "good portion".

This is where you are not understanding the condition. If you bridge the gap where a water meter is removed *in* the house with the bad neutral connection on it's electrical service you can get electrocuted. This is not the case if a neighbor has the bad neutral connection. This is also why water meters are installed with bonding straps connecting the pipes on either side.

And again, they don't. Only your unfounded paranoia is affecting you.

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Well, a quick google search shows a reference to the possibility in "Wiring for Dummies", although it doesn't document an occurence. The link is <http://books.google.com/books?id=wuPdEjNZle8C&pg=PT60 .

Current takes all available paths. The desired return path is your neutral service conductor. When there is a metallic copper water distribution system, an alternate path is through the water pipes to the neighbor's neutral service conductor (if they are on the same transformer). If the water service lateral is copper (as it is at my house), then the resistance of the alternate path may realistically be only 20 times greater than that of the service neutral. In which case a little under 5% of the current would flow on the alternate path, even when everything is working as intended.

If the neighbor has a bad neutral and his current is returning via the metallic water piping system, then it is traveling through the water pipes of everyone else who shares the transformer and water piping system with him. That might be anywhere from 0-20, say. If you share the electrical transformer and the water piping system with him, some of the current is on your water pipes, even if you shut off your main breaker! If you happen to be the only neighbor sharing the transformer and the water pipes, then all the current will be on your water pipes.
Cheers, Wayne
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Wayne-
imo, its all about risk; probability & consequences
the water service electrocution hazard is real but compared when compared to other sources of deadly danger...how does it rate? down the list from plan crashes & lightening strikes?
the truth of the matter is...in the USA we're much more likely to eat, smoke, drink or drive ourselves to death.....fall or fail to swim :(
the rest are pretty much de minimis, especially for a person with technical training or education
at what point do the code "improvements" reach to point of diminishing returns? or add complexity that might actually be counter productive?
cheers Bob
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wrote:

"Just when you think you've got it idiot proof, they come up with a better idiot."
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From the 2008 NEC:
210.8 Ground-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection for Personnel. (A) Dwelling Units [ . . . ] (2) Garages, and also accessory buildings that have a floor located at or below grade level not intended as habitable rooms and limited to storage areas, work areas, and areas of similar use
My point was just that you don't have to consider a detached garage part of the dwelling unit for it to be covered by 210.8(A)(2). It would still fall under "accessory buildings that have a floor located at or below grade level not intended as habitable rooms" clause.

Sure, that's always an option, that clause provides a lot of leeway.

I think most codes have a specific classification for accessory buildings to a dwelling unit that are not habitable space. For some reason the NEC only deals with the issue peripherally.
Cheers, Wayne
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On Fri, 11 Sep 2009 16:06:25 +0000 (UTC), Wayne Whitney

It is always going to be up to the AHJ. What they say goes. I am just reflecting what I see in Florida (protection up to 6.5' as a general rule and when I was in Md, NM on running boards was normal.
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On Fri, 11 Sep 2009 16:06:25 +0000 (UTC), Wayne Whitney

I found an interesting development in the ROP for the 2011 NEC. It turns out NFPA says the 2008 used poor language and that they do want to make it clear residential garages are considered dwellings for the purposes of the use of "exposed" NM. They are adding residential accessory buildings to the list of approved uses in 334.10(1)
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Thanks for the info, that certainly makes everything clear.
Yours, Wayne
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Wayne Whitney wrote:

Yes, real interesting.
But there is "poor language" in the NEC???
The 15 minute wall rating was the result of allowing (2002 NEC) Romex to be used in non-residential structures over 3 floors ( a change that was pushed by developers). The code change was forced by 'extraordinary' methods.
The requirement for non-residential construction over 3 floors makes no sense when applied to residential garages.
--
bud--

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Your question was already answered here: http://groups.google.com/group/alt.home.repair/browse_frm/thread/c96b86baa172dbab
Others may have forgotten but I havent that you keep asking over & over again until you get the answer you want like here: http://tinyurl.com/lrwagd
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If exposed and "accessible" the general answer is NO.
Heretofore, I didn't use armored cable but I bit the bullet and picked up 100' of #12 Al armored stuff.
I ended up buying a $29 gadget that makes it easy to cut the armor. After that, it many respects it's just as easy if not easier to use than the romex! You get the right "connectors" and don't forget the bushings (tiny little red sleves) and the cable clamps and you are ready to go.
My next purchase will be a roll of #14.
I had to connect some "boxes" on my basement wall. One was a relay transformer box and I couldn't find fittings to line up the knockouts on the relay box with the openings in the other boxes. Run the armored stuff and NO PROBLEM!
In larger sizes (#10 and larger) it might not be practical but for #12 it's very easy to use. If that problem comes up, I suspect I will use plastic conduit.
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On Thu, 10 Sep 2009 20:02:47 -0400, "John Gilmer"

I used to like AluSheath cable - can't seam to buy it any more. A lot nicer to work with than BX.
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I bought my house with an unfinished garage. Thats the way it was wired.
Jimmie
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