NEC 2005 Handbook

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Is we used that logic we could abandon all of the building codes and still not have the death toll we have from people not wearing seat belts. Think of all the people who would be put out of work! The reality is the "tombstones" that drive code law are so few and far between it only takes a couple stupid accidents to cause a half billion dollar industry to start up. AFCIs are a good example.
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That'd be fine by me.
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The strange thing is, when I was vacationing in Idaho I found vast areas of the state that do not really have any building code enforcement and I didn't see houses falling down or big scorch marks on the walls. I was expecting to see fire trucks in front of flaming buildings everywhere I went based on the things I hear on these groups. ;-)
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Thanks for the information, Bud. I hadn't done ant real research into these (to any great extent) and picked up that we will be seeing them on more branch circuits (possibly) from the 1003 IRC commentary. Interesting info about the series/parallel detection.
I was just looking over the UL website concerning arc-faults, and it appears (to me at least) that they were placed into code primarily to detect flexible cord sets (lamp cords). (Of course they will detect all arcing faults and shorts as well.) But that makes sense as a lot of fires can be traced directly to defective cordsets and extension cords. The discuss series/parallel arcing, but don't specifically state that it is parallel only (although I'm have no doubt you are correct.)
Thanks again, Dennis

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That is why they started with bedroom circuits. More prevalent use of extension cords (lamps, alarm clocks, electric blankets, etc.) and the higher probability of damage resulting from beds rolling over the cords.
Ben Miller
--
Benjamin D. Miller, PE
B. MILLER ENGINEERING
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Add to that the fact that people are sleeping in close proximity to the fault.
Ben Miller
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Benjamin D. Miller, PE
B. MILLER ENGINEERING
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Well your just a fountain of wisdom, Ben. (I mean that in a good way, I learned a lot reading your posting.)
Thanks, Dennis

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- Duane Bozarth -

- Nehmo - Since you concede not having figures, your "seriously doubt" doesnt carry any weight unless you give some basis aside from the absence of figures for your opinion. Elaborate if you can.
Non-profit is just an IRS distinction, 501(c)(3). The term doesnt really mean the company, or organization if you insist, doesnt make any money. Furthermore, the situation isnt simple because there are sister and sub organizations involved with the NFPA.
And please explain what the status of "full-time employee" has to do with anything? What are you saying? That only employees make money from an organization?
--
)|||(__ Nehmo __)|||(



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Nehmo wrote:

That there isn't a set of stockholders or other partners or private ownership mechanism. The Directors serve as do Directors of other corporations as a board of experienced business professionals that, undoubtedly, sit on multiple Boards in almost every case. In general BofD salaries are not exceedingly lucrative in the perjorative sense to which you and others here seem to have as a mindset.

True, but in general the focus of nonprofits is not _primarily_ one of making profits. But, if they perform a useful service and meet the rules of the IRS, what's wrong with that?

That, except for two, their primary compensation comes from their "day job", not from serving on the BofD of NFPA. Those two, of course, are primary officers on the Board by virtue of the position within the organization.
There is an annual filing w/ the IRS for all 501(c)(3)'s which can be looked at to determine a significant amount of the information. I don't have the inclination nor time at present to go look for it.
Just out of curiousity, what would you think an appropriate level of comensation for such a position? And why?
BTW, I noticed there's a VP position open that would probably pay pretty well if you want to get in on the gravy train! :)
And a couple of EE positions, as well if you'd like to actually contribute to the Standards themselves...
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Nehmo wrote:

OK, I went and found the IRS Form 990 from 2003 (last one online at the location I used).
Total salary of the top five officers was just over $1M. All Board of Directors members (other than the two previously mentioned who are fulltime employees) serve _without_ compensation.
Nice living, but certainly not outrageous imo for the officers of an orgainzation of roughly $65M revenues, and something otoo 250 employees it would seem estimating from the list of 110 w/ salaries of $50k or greater (the ones specifically listed were all top officers, the other higher paid appear to be the professionals on staff). BTW, they ended the year w/ a net operating gain after cost of programs, materials and other expenses of roughly $3M. That's about 5%.
The link I used is one to which I am registered as a board member of a nonprofit here that we use for research for grant writing, etc., and unfortunately protects the pdf file from cut 'n paste so I can't pick out specific data easily, but these are freely available if you want to go look on you own.
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- Nehmo

- Duane Bozarth -

- Nehmo The concept of inherent copyright vs. explicit is another issue too. But its good to know everybody can stop littering the web with those annoying little Cs. :-)
Copyright, in the legal sense, is about the right to control reproduction. Copyright in the abstract sense is about citing and plagiarism. Inherent copyrights dont have much value in the legal sense.
I made those preliminary affirmative assumptions to my previous post to simplify the discussion. I preemptively, in effect, *yielded* on those issues. I didn't and dont see the constructiveness in branching off on those elements.
- Nehmo

- Duane Bozarth -

- Nehmo Are you saying that NFPA is an sans-interest bystander in the process of governments adopting codes? NFPA is a full-standing principle in the process. Thats its business model. It managed to fashion itself into a monopoly on the access of certain laws.
- Duane Bozarth -

- Nehmo That's just the About from NFPAs own site. I assume you are referencing the international nonprofit line. Do you believe that means they dont make any money?
--
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Nehmo wrote:

That would be "principal" operator whose business model might be based on a "principle"... :)
I'm saying that entities have chosen to reference the NFPA (or NEC or any other Standard) is their choice in lieu of developing a separate code on their own. It was the proliferation of such varying standards that was a major impetus for the founding of the NFPA 100+ years ago. That it has been successful is, imo, more a testament to the efficacy of the codes and standards they developed than vice versa as you would seem to want to assert.
Re: financials, I posted data there in another response already--your newserver may not have updated yet...
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- Nehmo -

- Duane Bozarth -

- Nehmo - But you missed the other error, so you only get %50 on my subtle test. It's in there.
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If it's free then I should be able to ask the NEC for it, or whoever publishes it and they'll just hand it to me, right?
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Not exactly, if your local authority adopts it by reference or statement, then it is up to your local authority to make it available, not the NFPA.
Many such local authorities now do this by placing a copy in the public reading room, or library. You cannot necessarily check out such references (just like you can't take home the unabridged dictionary), but you can read it there all day long if you wish. Or most libraries can make copies of specific pages for a small fee to cover their costs.
Meets the law as far as Veeck goes, and does *not* allow unlimited public distribution.
daestrom

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daestrom wrote:

Exactly.
However, the NEC 2005 Handbook* is not adopted, or incorporated as law by any jurisdiction I'm aware of. So there is NO requirement to make it available to the public, library copy or not.
*Unless the OP erred in his original post, he refers to the Handbook and not the Code itself.
--
Paul Hovnanian mailto: snipped-for-privacy@Hovnanian.com
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- daestrom -

- Paul Hovnanian P.E. -

- Nehmo - Veeck was an old guy in Texas who had a web site where he posted some codes. Southern Building Code Congress International, an organization that sells codes, sent him a Cease and Desist. Veeck, with no money behind him, preemptively asked the courts for a declaratory judgment. The Federal Fifth Circuit agreed with Veeck in that copyrights on works that become law arent enforceable. The Supreme Court of the United States declined to review the case; thus, the decision stands for the Fifth circuit. Its not controlling in any other circuit, however, it has persuasive value in those places.
The Veeck decisions are summarized on the site: http://www.gtwassociates.com/answers/veeck.htm (Ive posted the link a few times already!) You can also see the decisions directly, but theyre harder to understand that way.
There are numerous other decisions regarding the right to have access to the law.
Now the library issue. I can testify that the NEC was _not_ available in the Kansas City public libraries, seven years ago when I tried to look at a copy. It was reportedly available at DCA, a municipal office, but I actually ended up getting what I wanted from a private party. I dont know what the current situation is. But I imagine, if a library did have a book or disk with the NEC, it would be the handbook.
- Paul Hovnanian P.E. -

- Nehmo - NFPA writes the code and the handbook, which has annotations and pictures (see for yourself). Without which the code would be impossible to understand. Its hard enough as it is. It could easily be argued that the handbook is an extension of the code. But fortunately, I dont need to argue that for the public to have access. Nowadays, anybody who wants can download a copy.
--
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The handbook is not adopted as law.
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Another good example of idiot judges needing to get thrown out on their asses.

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Nehmo, I've found http://www.tinyurl.com great for generating short url's for inclusion in postings.

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