More than one wire to a hole/set-screw on neutral bus bar?

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I'm adding two new outlets to my circuit breaker panel. I've got the room for the additional breakers in the box but the neutral bus bar has no more room for the neutral and ground wires required. Is it permissible to put more than one wire per set-screw hole on the neutral bus bar? Some sites I've researched say yes, others say no. If no, what are the options besides replacing the whole circuit breaker panel?
TIA,
-- Bobby G.
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No.
>Some sites

Get a bus bar kit from your distributor. Install in panel, there will be predrilled/ tapped holes for this. Connect regular bus bar and added bus bar via the larger set screw holes intended for this purpose. Use short section of #4 or #6 bare copper to connect. Should take half an hour and cost under $20. HTH
Joe
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yeah i added a bus bar to the home i sold because a bunch of bus bar screws were totally frozen in position, used bus bar from home depot it passed middle group inspection after home inspector insisted re inspection because original sticker signature had faded,
i hope the fellow who bought my home has even worse hassles when he sells my old home, it would serve him right
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<stuff snipped>
<<yeah i added a bus bar to the home i sold because a bunch of bus bar screws were totally frozen in position, used bus bar from home depot it passed middle group inspection after home inspector insisted re inspection because original sticker signature had faded,>>
My inspection sticker turned out to be a forgery! The son of the original owner called me to confess his father's sin after they had some big fight. Not much I could do about it, though.
<<i hope the fellow who bought my home has even worse hassles when he sells my old home, it would serve him right>>
What goes around, comes around.
-- Bobby G.
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wrote:

Thanks, Joe. That's what I thought when I saw the two front-facing threaded screw holes on the frontmost bar. At first I thought they were empty set-screw threads but on closer inspection, that's where two existing bus bars are connected. I'll check with the local supply house after I record the box model number and take some photos to show them. I recalled reading somewhere that two wires to a hole can lead to intermittent neutral problems and that's why I asked.
-- Bobby G.
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On Tue, 11 Dec 2007 21:51:35 -0500, "Robert Green"

You can double up or maybe even triple up GROUND wires (depending on brand) , Neutrals are one per hole. Look at the panel label to see about the grounds. Don't pull of any neutrals if the power is on. Bad things can happen. Trip the main. Certainly adding supplimental bars is a better way to go but don't put neutrals on suplimental bars, only grounds. If you put a neutral on the supplimental bars you are putting circuit current through the metal can and the green bonding screw. (that is 250.6 for you code guys)
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That explains the confusion.

Shocking!
Not sure I understand this. This is a very old (well circa 1981) panel. I have a photograph but I think the Usenet police forbid posting same here. It looks like a supplemental bar would screw into the two existing bars and wouldn't contact anything except the existing bars. This is old, ungrounded wiring. The panel was a "heavy up" added so that the buyer could qualify for an FHA sale. Next time I go downstairs, I'll copy all the important info.
-- Bobby G.
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On Thu, 13 Dec 2007 22:31:13 -0500, "Robert Green"

If you can find a kit that piggybacks on the neutral bus you can connect neutral wires to it but most supplimental kits just screw to the enclosure in factory tapped holes. That is fine for ground wires but you don't want neutral wires on that kind of bus. It puts circuit current through the metal enclosure.
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I see. The bus bar that I am hoping to find should be a piggy back type that screws into the existing bus bars, essentially adding another "tier" of holes and setscrews. It doesn't connect to the panel enclosure, but seems to be electrically isolated from it. It would seem that the screws that hold the new bus bar to the old two would be able to carry a lot of current but I believe I will take a large piece of wire to connect the two bars as advised previously. I'm just hoping I can find something to fit a 26 year-old circuit panel.
-- Bobby G.
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On Fri, 14 Dec 2007 06:17:55 -0500, "Robert Green"

You posted the relevent information. The model number of the panel and the part number of the neutral kits listed for it should be all you need if you go to a real electrical supplier. The Home store *may* have it but you will probably have to figure out which one it is yourself.
You can poke around on the SqD web site to see what they have http://www.us.squared.com/us/squared/corporate_info.nsf/unid/4FEF20769F701BC985256DDB0073B0F6 /$file/SqDUSHomeFrameset.htm
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I've copied down the numbers and taken some photographs to take to the local electrical supply shop. Hopefully, they know what's required in this jurisdiction. There are 100's of house in this neighborhood all built the same.

985256DDB0073B0F6/$file/SqDUSHomeFrameset.htm
Thanks for the URL. I'll give it a look.
-- Bobby G.
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985256DDB0073B0F6/$file/SqDUSHomeFrameset.htm
They responded very quickly, but not with the information I had hoped for:
******************************************************************** Thank you for contacting Square D/Schneider Electric.
The solid neutrals for our loadcenters are built into the interiors. There are no UL rated supplemental neutrals made for that purpose. The only solution is to change the service.
I hope this will take care of you. Please contact us again if we can be of further assistance.
********************************************************************
I'm not sure this is true of the older panels. The two tapped holes in the front of the bus look as if they would accommodate an auxilliary bar and the illustration on the panel label shows a configuration with three bus bars, not the two that are in the panel. <Sigh> The search continues . . .
-- Bobby G.
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On Mon, 17 Dec 2007 15:35:19 -0500, "Robert Green"

Wht not just get a grounding kit and move over some grounds to free up some holes on the neutral bar. There should be tapped holes an a couple of places in the enclosure for ground bars. I still like to jumper them back to the neutral with a fat wire but the 10/32 screws are OK by code for ground busses.
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If I decide to go that route, I will certainly jumper the ground bus to the neutral with the thickest wire I have, which is either a 10 or a 8. As I noted in the previous post, moving the grounds that are connected to the neutral bus to their own bus will free up exactly enough wires to accommodate all of the available breaker positions, as the box was probably designed to do.
Thanks for the help. Much appreciated.
-- Bobby G.
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Robert Green wrote:

You could write back to SquareD and ask if there are any ground bars available now that fit your panel.
--
bud--

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news:c2fcc$4767f180$4213eac2
<stuff snipped>

Already did that as soon as I found the *left* hand label that specified wire sizes for the panel and the part numbers for aux ground bars. (-:
I'm not too hopeful they'll have anything. In that case, I'll adapt the Cutler Hammer device I have. I'll mark through the mounting holes onto the panel's sheet metal back, drill two small pilot holes and then screw the bar down with self-tapping sheet metal screws. The only remaining problem is that it still doesn't free enough neutral holes in the neutral bar to accommodate the outlets I am installing if I use a bonding jumper between the neutral bus and the ground bus. I end up just one hole short. It's always something!
-- Bobby G.
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news:c2fcc$4767f180$4213eac2
<stuff snipped>

They've replied (very quickly, I might add!):
"The part numbers PK9GTA or PK12GTA are good part numbers and are available from either retail (Lowes, Home Depot) or from a Square D Distributor."
We'll see what HD has to offer. I need to get some GFCI's anyway, so I hope they have the bus bars and the final pieces of this puzzle fall into place. I suspect the Square D bus bar is going to look very much like the Cutler Hammer one does.
FWIW, Ace has the part and it looks so much like the CH bar that I am going to use what I have:
http://images.acehardwareoutlet.com/Products/36348.jpg
The major different appears to be the spacing between the mounting holes. If I can see mounts for the Square D bar, I might still be tempted to return the CH and use the SQD part, but I suspect it's a drill your own affair for both, so they're equivalent.
-- Bobby G.
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<stuff snipped>

I don't know if the picture of the panel made it through, but there are two bus bars at the top of the circuit breaker "stack" - one screwed into the other and the outermost one have two tapped screw holes that look like a third bar could be attached. The drawings on the label show three different models of this box - one has one bar, one has two and the third illustration shows three bars. What I need looks like a 8" strip of metal drilled with holes and accompanying setscrews. I'll report back when I get to the supply house. I was unable to get there on Friday so it's got to wait until Monday.
Thanks for your help!
-- Bobby G.
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wrote:

Post your pics at tinypic.com and it will give you a URL to post in a Usenet message.
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snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

I'm completely confused. I thought the neutral and ground bars were bonded together. And, one of the ways of accomplishing that was a screw to the panel.
So, in that case, wouldn't the neutral wires be connected to the casing?
I recently had a post where I had the same set up as the OP (everything on the neutral bar--old 1960 panel). However, there was an unused ground bar in the panel and an electrician recently added some new grounds to it. I was concered that I forgot to ask him if that ground bar was bonded to the neutral. Everyone here said most likely the neutral had a "screw" that is hard to see that connects it to the box, and therefore they should be bonded since the ground bar is right on the metal box. So if that is true, then there must be current running through the metal case, which you say is wrong. Or am I misunderstanding your point?
-- John
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