Is this Roofing error pretty common?

[DerbyDad03]

I put the roof on my half-price shed kit last yesterday and I noticed that the roofing instructions in the plans were wrong. I did a little internet research and found some indications that a lot of instructions either don't mention one of the key points or show the same error as my shed plans.

My shed instructions say to install the starter course of shingles with the tabs facing up. This puts the adhesive strip mid way up the first course, with nothing to hold down the tabs of the first course.

I've found instructions on the web that either don't say anything about cutting the tabs off or if they do, they don't mention the fact that the adhesive strip should be placed at the bottom, near the eave.

I'm just curious if stats like the ones mentioned at the following site are accurate. Is it true that 90 - 95% of roofers do it wrong - placing the adhesive strip too high up on the starter course?

[Tony Hwang]

As far as I know that's how they do. I don't know if it is a wrong way.

[DerbyDad03]

Figure 3 here shows a picture of what I believe to be the correct way to install the Starter Course:

I'm not a roofer, I only recently played one in my backyard, so I'm open to being corrected.

[Jim Elbrecht]

-snip-

I guess there are 4 of us who do it right, now. I argued for a minute with my brothers-in-law as they started to re-roof their house. But they've 'been in the business'[construction] all their lives, and I haven't, so I just asked if they could see the difference in results and let them go ahead and do it wrong.

Jim

[dpb]

Just 'cuz they're "in da' bizness" probably means they've got even higher chance of doing it wrong than the DIY'er because the time to trim the tabs is directly bottom-line $$ instead of just a few extra minutes.

Of course, the manufacturers all make starter shingles specifically for the purpose if they would simply go to the trouble to use them...

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[DerbyDad03]

re: Of course, the manufacturers all make starter shingles specifically for the purpose if they would simply go to the trouble to use them...

True, but if you are talking about "bottom-line $$ instead of just a few extra minutes" the same (or worse) applies to using a pre-made starter shingles.

Even you said "go to the trouble to use them".

Using them would mean locating them, opening the package, storing them where they can be found the next time and all the other "time consuming steps" involved with using them, as opposed to just grabbing a standard shingle and cutting the tabs off.

If they won't go through the trouble/time/expense of cutting the tabs off, I can't imagine they would go through the even greater trouble/ time/expense of using an additional product.

[dpb]

DerbyDad03 wrote: ...

Isn't that what I just got through expounding on????

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[DerbyDad03]

My bad. I took your post to mean that the pre-made starter shingles would be an easier/cheaper alternative to cutting the tabs off, which I guess we both agree is not the case.

[benick]

Yup , that's how it's done especially by old schoolers...Don't see much 3 tab around here anymore...Architectural shingles are all the rage and are better shingles and are faster to lay..You HAVE to use starter shingles for the first course and the cap....

[Mike]

Quite the contrary. Certainteed sells starters by the bundle, they are 3 tab with defects, the tabs are already cut off. The defects were/are to the tab portion, which is no longer there. They are priced roughly $6 per bundle, than a bundle of 25 yr shingles.

An aside note, all roofing suppliers in my area carry them. They are not available at the retail outlets in my area.

[Mike]

Oh brother.... I hate when I proof read, after I sent it. They are roughly $6 per bundle _cheaper_ , than a bundle of 25 yr.

[DerbyDad03]

.

Hey Mike - How about changing the subject line back to the original....

[DerbyDad03]

My use of the words "easier/cheaper alternative" meant that it's easier/cheaper from a bottom-line dollar perspective because of the time required to use the starter shingles instead of cutting the tabs off.

Think of it this way....

1 - I am going to charge the client the total cost of material + labor either way, so the $6 savings per bundle for the starter shingles makes no difference to me and probably not much to the client since I won't need too many bundles of the starters for most jobs.

2 - I can worry about and deal with these specialized shingles being where I need them when I need them and all that little stuff, or I can just toss my regular shingles up on the roof, grab whatever I want and in a matter of - what, 2 seconds? - cut the tabs off and have a starter shingle.

Which do you think is going to take me (or my workers) less time to do? I sure wouldn't want to go looking for starter shingles as I move across the roof when I've got bundles of "ready to become starter shingles" shingles within easy reach at all times.

Since time is money, any savings on the starter shingles is going to get eaten up in all the extra "stuff" involved with having them, finding them, using them, storing them, transporting them, etc.

[LK]

Probably because I had a correction

What's the problem?

[DerbyDad03]

The problem is that the title of the thread got changed to "Correction" and people trying to follow the original can't find it anymore. I stumbled across it by accident.

[Mike]

You need to think efficiency, plus cost factor. Sadly, I was roofing for nearly 16 yrs. You need to think $, on the average our jobs used nearly 1 sq (3 bundles of starter), that's including running the rake edges for a

3/4" overhang. You need to cut (time), since I see you like to cut as you go, you're switching from a nail gun (or roof hammer) to knife. That is really inefficient. When you cut, you have waste, you can't let it just sit there, someone has to toss it in a dump truck or whatever you're using for disposal. Another inefficient step.

If you're hauling your own shingles up, either your time isn't very valuable, or you're using cheap labor. You can't beat RTD (roof top delivery). For a $3 per square charge, you get drip edge/felt/shingles/starter/ venting/ collar stacks all set on the roof. If you have regular tab shingles that you intead to cut for starters, it's going to be more $ instead of just having starters set RTD in the first place.

You don't go looking for starters. It's called being organized. Nobody needs anyone on their roof which operates haphazardly. You're scaring me on how you operate.

Absolutely wrong, its already proven.

[dpb]

Well, I misread your misread...

I think the "for-purpose" product is/would be simpler/cheaper; simply that even the "pros" don't bother as much out of ignorance as anything.

Hence, since they don't order the product they should (which would be delivered to jobsite by the supplier just as the regulars would so there's nothing else for the roofer himself to do) the installers, being just cheap hired labor take the easy way out. In most cases, they probably really don't know any better 'cuz they've never had any real training, simply just started watching somebody else who didn't know any better either.

[DerbyDad03]

re: You're scaring me on how you operate.

It appears you may not have been follow "I'm not a roofer, I only recently played one in my backyard, so I'm open to being corrected."

Since you obviously have more experience and knowledge when it comes to roofing, I accept your explanation and stand humbly corrected.

P.S. Can you answer the original question I asked? Do most roofers install the starter course incorrectly as shown in my shed plans (tabs up with no regard to the placement of the adhesive strip) and commented on at this site?

[Mike]

My bad, I'm sorry I didn't catch that.

I've torn off many jobs, and have noticed how they were installed. I can't say "most" install them incorrectly, and honestly couldn't even estimate how many are done incorrectly. There are many, which do install a full shingle, which is incorrect.

In all honesty, I don't know how "Brad" estimates 95% of roofers install them incorrect. All professional roofers, know how to install correctly. If they're not doing it correctly, they are either lazy or not a professional.

Just because someone puts on a roof or a dozen roofs, doesn't make them a roofer. Anymore than me flinging a paint brush, makes me a painter.

[aemeijers]

Or walk along with a caulking gun and put a couple dabs of roofing cement in the 'correct' spot on each upside down shingle before the the next course is laid over it?

I've seen untrimmed upside-down starter courses used for 40-odd years, and never noticed any big tendency for the bottom row of shingles to flap in the breeze. I'm no fluidics expert, but I think it has something to do with the angle of attack of the incoming wind. With no roof downhill from it, the air currents aren't parallel to the roof surface. If you are talking a force-5 hurricane, the sticky spots will not make much difference. Asphalt shingles were around a long time before they added those.

-- aem sends...