I would go for the 200A panel even if you don't think you need it now. It leaves many more options available for the future if you ever change your electric use. Plus, if you ever decide to sell, a 200A service will be standard, a 100A service will seem limited.
Although a 100 amp panel may suit your current needs, you should consider the future. Do you have any plans to enlarge the house? How much longer do you plan to live there? Do you think that you might install central air conditioning at some point? Maybe in a few years you might get a hot tub.
You don't want to pay for another service upgrade later when you find that you will need more juice. Just for the heck of it, ask this electrician for a price on a 200 amp service with a 40 circuit panel. Let us know what he says.
Called tonight for an estimate on the 200 amp service. I'll post what he says and what I end up doing.
I thank everyone for their help.
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Do get other estimates. Sounds like he is mainly updating to breakers from fuses and getting rid of basement junction boxes. Is he running any more wires/outlets? adding any grounded of gfci circuits?
sounds too expensive to me for what sounds like is being done.
lee h
Who can tell? Without being there, we're all guessing.
Hey, original poster. Call an electrician. You may be in danger, but we don't know.
My fav was the post on alt havoc. Guy blew a 5 amp fuse on his furnace once a week, or so. He put in a 30, figured it would last six weeks. Hmm.
Hard to put a penny behing a circuit breaker.
If an electrican suggested grounding anything to a water pipe, FIRE HIM...or at least don't hire him. It is a violation of the National Electrical Code to use a water pipe as a ground.
You are putting your plumber's life at risk!!!
Charlie S. wrote:
Would you be kind enough to read Article 250 of NEC 2005, which seems to be at variance with your opinion.
The electrician in question seems to be a belt-and-suspenders type, who is going to install three grounds, two to driven electrodes and one to a water pipe, which is not only in compliance with NEC 2005 but exceeds the requirement.
I don't know what bizarre notion leads you to believe that grounding to a metal water pipe in contact with the earth endangers anyone, in fact it is quite the opposite--by grounding to a water pipe all possibility of a differential between electrical ground and the potential in the water pipe is eliminated and the risk of shock is reduced, however slightly.
The real risk >> >> Bought a new air conditioner this weekend. Thought the higher BTU
Well John,
Perhaps you can explain to the group what is going to happen to the plumber that has to cut the copper pipe that you are using for a ground????
If there is any current leakage through that ground, then the plumber is going to have 120V across his body when he grabs the two ends of the pipe.
J. Clarke wrote:
Look, if you don't like the NEC, take it up with them. But don't claim that something violates the code when it doesn't.
he NEC says the connection to the water pipe has to be within 5' of the entrance to the house. That has to be supplimented with another electrode.
Don't get excited John, I was just commenting on your statement .."..what bizarre notion leads you to believe that grounding to a metal water pipe in contact with the earth endangers anyone, in fact it is quite the opposite--.."
That clearly is not true!!!
And maybe you are right about the NEC, it is probably our local code here that prohibits grounding to water pipes. Grounding to a water pipe in a dangerous thing to do!!!
J. Clarke wrote:
The NEC method addresses that. You are required to have _two_ grounds, one of which can be a water pipe and the other of which can be the structure of a metal building, provided specific conditions are met.
The electrician in question proposed _three_, two electrodes driven into the ground and one to the water pipe.
Floating the water pipes is just as dangerous you know.
Your kill the plumber scenario by the way requires that several things have gone wrong. Do you know of it actually happening anywhere?
John,
I don't agree that the "Your kill the plumber scenario by the way requires that several things have gone wrong." It only requires ONE thing to go wrong---that being that the plumber opens the pipe which has a current on it from some grounding issue.
If the water pipe is used as a ground, and there is medal pipe all the way to the bottom of your well or to the water utility, then the water pipe will be a better ground than the rods you may have driven in the ground,...ie. fewer "ohms" to the earth..and thus the best path to ground. So, most of the current from any ground leakage will be going through that water pipe and NOT to the grounds driven into the earth. and..like I stated before, when the plumber opens the pipe he could easily have the voltage potential across his body.
I didn't just make this up---- Check out page 19, Scenario 4, of this OSHA report
J. Clarke wrote:
[snip]
The water pipe is supposed to be grounded; the electrician will run a #6 wire all the way to a convenient place withing a few feet of the meter, then put a jumper around the meter if there's not one already (so the circuit is not broken if the water meter is removed.
He's using 2 ground rods tied together because that way he don't have to check that the impedance is less than 25 ohms. (I'm not sure that's necessary when you have the copper water service as the main grounding electrode)
I have no idea if $1600 is a good price or not, but what he's proposing sounds reasonable. I might check about a 125A service because it would probably cost exactly the same. Price goes up at 150A, and way up at
200A, because of the size of the wires and the conduit for the service entrance.I did the same upgrade you're doing to my old house about 13 years ago. (I did it myself) I put in a 150A service instead of a 100A because I knew I wanted to add a workshop later, including a welder.
If the old wiring is in good shape I wouldn't tear it out. Install GFCI outlets where needed, run separate ground wires to a few strategic outlets (you don't have to tear the walls out to run a ground wire, it's just a real PITA getting the wire thru the wall to the box)
Best regards, Bob
That's two. It would require the simultaneous occurrence of an electrical problem and the need for a plumber.
[snip]
And if it is wired to code also that the _second_ ground has failed which makes three.
In my house when I bought it, there was no electrical outlet in the bathroom except for an outlet in the light fixture over the sink. The house was wired with 12-2 Romex with no ground. So they ran a ground wire from the fixture to a nearby copper water pipe. That was allowable back then. So what happens if something is plugged in and has a leak to ground? Current travels in that pipe back to where the water pipe system is bonded to the electrical ground. Some if the electricity travel to the earth thru the water meter and out, and most of it travels up the grounding electrode conductor to the panel. Notice that only one fault has occurred and there is current flowing through the pipe with no alternate path until it gets near the water meter. If that pipe is cut, a couple of bad things happen. All the plumbing fixtures connected to that pipe that are downstream of the cut are energized. Any additional outlet grounds that are grounded to that pipe are energized. The plumber who cut that pipe can be electrocuted when the pipe separates and he's holding onto both sides.
One ground fault and it causes lots of dangerous situations.
Best regards, Bob
Screw up number 1. Ungrounded outlet. Screw up number 2. No GFI on an outlet in a bathroom.
Screw up number three. Grounding to a point other than the breaker panel.
We are not talking about what was "allowable back then", we are talking about NEC 2005 I believe.
Screw up number 4--something has an undetected leak.
Screw up number 5, undersized grounding conductor resulting in significant voltage drop across the length of the conductor, if I understand what you wrote here correctly.
Nope, according to NEC 2005 at least three violations of code have occurred.
Screw up number 6--ungrounded appliances.
Screwup number 7, more outlets not grounded to the central grounding point.
If the wiring violates code.
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