Intermatic Whole House Surge Protector ?

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w_tom is not promoting for a plug-in manufacturer. Bud is. 'Scary pictures' are a problem with plug-in protectors designed to maximize profits and that do not even claim to provide protection. Protectors located on flammable materials such as a rug or adjacent to a pile of desktop papers: http://www.hanford.gov/rl/?page=556&parent=554 http://www.westwhitelandfire.com/Articles/Surge%20Protectors.pdf http://www.ddxg.net/old/surge_protectors.htm http://www.zerosurge.com/HTML/movs.html http://tinyurl.com/3x73ol or http://www3.cw56.com/news/articles/local/BO63312 /
Bud is repeatedly asked for plug-in manufacturer specs that list each type of surge and protection from that surge. Manufacturers specs don't even list protection from any type of surge. So Bud pretends the request does not exist.
Bud cannot provide numbers that plug-in manufacturers will not provide. Bud must deny this problem with plug-in protectors. Bud will even belittle others. And still Bud will not provide a single manufacturer spec that claims protection. But will not even admit who he is promoting for. Protectors that do not even claim to provide protection - but are so profitable.
Take a $3 power strip. Add some ten cent parts. Sell it for $25 or $150. That profit margin explains why plug-in protectors are promoted. Even manufacturer specs do not claim to provide protection. No wonder Bud will never provide those spec numbers. Honesty might endanger profits.
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w_tom wrote:

To quote w_ "It is an old political trick. When facts cannot be challenged technically, then attack the messenger." My only association with surge protectors is I have some.
Lacking valid technical arguments w_ lies.

Lacking valid technical arguments w_ repeats the 'scary' lie. w_ has no source that says UL listed plugin suppressors produced after 1998 are a fire hazard.

Lacking valid technical arguments w_ invents issues. "Each type of surge" is nonsense. Plug-in suppressors have MOVs from H-G, N-G, H-N. That is all possible combinations and all possible surge modes.
w_ favored SquareD service panel suppressors do not list "each type of surge".
w_ has never explained how "common mode" surges get past the NG bond required in US services.

The last plug-in suppressor I bought (about $25) had 1 MOV that was 1475J, 75,000A and 2 that were 590J 30,000A. w_ will likely ignore this and continue to ask for specs, as usual.

3rd repetition of the lie. Too bad w_ doesn't have technical arguments.

Provide a source for a 1475J 75,000A MOV for ten cents.
Both the IEEE and NIST guides say plug-in suppressors are effective. Read the sources.
There are 98,615,938 other web sites, including 13,843,032 by lunatics, and w_ can't find another lunatic that says plug-in suppressors are NOT effective.
Never answered - simple questions: - Why do the only 2 examples of protection in the IEEE guide use plug-in suppressors? - Why does the NIST guide says plug-in suppressors are "the easiest solution"?
- bud--
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A plug-in protector uses maybe 1/3rd and never more than 2/3rds of it joules in protection. When a plug-in protector has other connections (ie telephone, cable, ethernet), those numbers decrease. Meanwhile, 'whole house' protectors from responsible companies (GE, Siemens, Cutler-Hammer, Intermatic, Keison, etc) use ALL joules for protection. Using all joules means the same sized 'whole house' protector may last eight times longer and can divert even more surge into earth. Did Bud forget to mention that? Profit would be at risk.
Bud still provides not one plug-in manufacturer spec that actually claims protection. Protection numbers cannot be quoted when no - not one - plug-in protector manufacturers claims that protection. Oh. $25 for one plug-in protector ... that does not even claim to provide protection? One whole house' protector costs about $1 per protected appliance. That 'whole house' protector also does not earth surges destructively 8000 volts destructively through an adjacent appliance - Page 42 Figure 8 from Bud's citation.
A surge protector is only as effective as its earth ground which is the point quoted in every Bud citation:

How does that protector without a 'less than 10 foot' connection to earth "divert it to ground, where it can do no harm"? It cannot *divert* to what it does not connect to. Same point demonstrated in two front page articles in Electrical Engineering Times entitled "Protecting Electrical Devices from Lightning Transients". Where do they discuss plug-in protectors? They don't. The article is about effective surge protection. It discusses earth ground and connections to earth ground; what provides protection.
A homeowner upgrades building earthing to meet and exceed post 1990 NEC code, and installs a 'whole house' protector from responsible companies. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground which is why effective protectors have that short and dedicated wire to earth ground.
How to identify the ineffective protector: 1) No dedicated earthing wire. 2) Manufacturer avoids all discussion about earthing. No earth ground means no effective protection which is why some will even 'forget' how few joules actually get used in protection.
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w_tom wrote:

Poor w_ can invent the stupidest arguments. 75,000A, the MOV that takes most of the hit, is far larger than needed in a service panel suppressor. There is no possibility of getting that current on a branch circuit. The high value just goes with the high energy ratings.
Investigation by the author of the NIST guide with surges up to 10,000A on a branch circuit with a MOV at the end found in 13 of 15 cases the amount of energy absorbed by the MOV was less than 1.2J. The maximum was 35J. Arc-over at the panel and impedance of the branch circuit simply limit the current, and thus energy, that can reach a plug-in suppressor. The ratings in my suppressor are far over what it will see making the likelihood of ever failing essentially zero.

What an idiot.

Counting light bulbs and switches as "appliances".

And the required statement of religious belief in earthing. Poor w_s religious blinders prevent him from reading in the IEEE guide that plugin suppressors work primarily by clamping, not earthing.
Still missing - link another lunatic that says plug-in suppressors are NOT effective.
Still missing answers to simple questions: - Why do the only 2 examples of protection in the IEEE guide use plug-in suppressors? - Why does the NIST guide says plug-in suppressors are "the easiest solution"?
Bizarre claim - plug-in surge suppressors don't work Never any sources that say plug-in suppressors are NOT effective. Twists opposing sources to say the opposite of what they really say. Attempts to discredit opponents. w_ is a purveyor of junk science.
For real science read the IEEE and NIST guides. Both say plug-in suppressors are effective.
--
bud--


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I think both have their uses and as per the IEEE, can complement each other. For example, an issue Tom never addresses is that lots of people are living in an apartment or rented home and they can't install a whole house protector at the panel. And even for those that do have a whole house protector, having secondary protection at the point of use only adds to the protection. Curiously, one of his arguments is that manufacturers of electonic eqpt all include surge protection in the electronic eqpt, so it's already built-in and apparently Tom is OK with that. Yet, the protection used inside electronics like a TV set has no earth ground nearby, without which, according to Tom, surge protection is impossible. In fact, at the appliance, it's even an addional cord length of 6 ft away from earth ground as compared to where a plug-in suppresor would be. So, then how could protection inside the electronics possibly work?
I know one thing. If a surge does make it to the outlet, I'd rather have it next encounter the MOVs inside the $20 surge protector, instead of the ones in the $2000 TV.
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On Apr 22, 3:14 pm, snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net wrote:

Review Page 42 Figure 8. A surge arrives on black (hot) wire. Plug- in protector shunts that surge onto white (neutral) and green (safety ground) wires. Now that surge has three paths to find earth ground, 8000 volts destructively, through that TV. Bud's citation that shows what a plug-in protector might do ALSO shows how that same ineffective protector can contribute to appliance damage.
w_tom has addressed this apartment problem repeatedly. A kludge. Cut the protector power cord as short as possible. Plug it into a receptacle attached to the breaker box. This locates the protector as far as possible from appliances and close to earth ground. No, this is not very good protection. But it is an improvement over the worst installation; a protector adjacent to the appliance.
Meanwhile, apartments in steel and concrete buildings already have best earthing. Breaker box is bonded to steel. Only needed is a 'whole house' protector - effective earthing already exists.
w_tom learned this stuff decades ago in this example. A house without a 'whole house' protector had networked computers; two computers on plug-in protectors. All computers powered off. Plug-in protectors created the damage as demonstrated three paragraphs up. Black wire surge was shunted (connected) to the green wire. Plug-in protector bypassed protection in both computers - put surges into each computer's motherboard and network card. Surge found earth ground via the network, a third computer and its modem. Without plug-in protectors, the surge would not have been shunted (diverted, clamped, bonded) into motherboard - would not have bypassed protection already inside those computers. Better protection would have been no plug-in protector. Or connecting protector to a receptacle at the breaker box - as far as possible from computers to be closer to earth ground.
Using a plug-in protector without a properly earthed 'whole hosue' protector can result in adjacent appliance damage - as demonstrated by Bud in his citation Page 42 Figure 8. Plug-in protector can only supplement - cannot replace missing earth ground protection. Without the 'whole house' protector, in so many examples, the plug-in protector then created electronics damage.
Only wild speculation says a plug-in protector is better than nothing. A plug-in protector does not even claim to protect from typically destructive surges. Do not assume, as Bud hopes, that all surges are same. Had the plug-in protectors not exists, then all networked computers may not have been damaged.
We earth surge protectors for a type of surge that typically causes damage AND must be earthed. No way around what must provide protection even in apartments.
trader, unlike a sales promoter Bud, I have actually done this. We designed some of this stuff (in custom installations), and learned from mistakes. One mistake - I foolishly thought a plug-in protector was better than nothing. Then lightning taught us some lessons. No way around what provides protection from the typically destructive surge: earth ground. Even the manufacturer will not claim what Bud is posting. Above: plug-in protectors too close to the appliance even made damage possible. What kind of protection is that? Ineffective protection. In multiple examples, plug-in protector was worse than nothing. But good news: it will protect from a surge that typically does not create damage. That means complete protection.
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Are you for real? Cut the cord short and plug it into a receptacle attached to the breaker box? What receptacle attached to what breaker box? Geez, I've lived in many apartments and the only outlets attached to the breaker box were the ones in the wall, which is where everyone, including the IEEE would place the protector. And like cutting the cord from 3 ft to what 1 ft is going to make a significant difference? LOL

Hmmm, couldn't be too many decades ago that a typical house had networked computers...
All computers powered off. Plug-in

How does an external surge protector "bypass" the internal protection? And how exactly is it that the same components inside a computer are going to deal with the surge any differently? Internally, the MOV's have the exact same deployment choices ie hot to neutral, hot to ground, etc that they do in an external surge protector. Unless you're gonna tell us that the TV comes with an earth ground inside it.
Better protection would have been no plug-in

Do you have any credible reference, or even any reference at all, other than your own claims of surge protectors causing damage of this type rather than helping prevent it? Funny the IEEE doesn't warn about it.

No, only wild speculation says it's worse. Reference please.
A plug-in protector does not even claim to protect from

Read the label and marking on the box it comes in.
Do not assume, as Bud hopes, that all

Of course in your jaundiced view, anything that's bad that happens is due to either plug-in surge protectors or human failure. If the cat died, it would be due to the surge protector too. I've had exactly the opposite experience, where electronics connected to plug-in surge protectors came through a lightning storm OK, while one device NOT using one was destroyed.

We do get a chuckle here listening to you rant about Bud and trying to discredit him by claiming he sells plug-in surge protectors. How long before you start accusing me too? Actually, I think you have, in the past.
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Are you insane? It is routine to have receptacles attached a breaker box. With simple technical grasp of facts, then a receptacle located only feet from the breaker box would be an alternative. Is that so difficult? Well yes if one ignores impedance. It's this difficult. Longer wire means high impedance which is why a six cord power cord is cut as short as possible. Two EE Times front page articles were provided so that trader could learn what is important - low impedance. Trader never read it. Instead trader complains because he cannot find an AC receptacle. Trader, please stop asking for help to find an AC receptacle. Ask your mom.
Cutting feet off that protector wire is significant for a kludge protection system. Even sharp wire bends diminish protection. Trader would know that from reading front page EE Times articles entitled "Protecting Electrical Devices from Lightning Transients". Then traders next post could be questions based in technology and tempered by numbers.
How does protection inside a computer get bypassed? Where does the black wire connect? Where does the green wire connect? Protection inside a computer is substantial where the black wire connects. A green wire surge finds an easy and direct connection - near zero protection - into motherboard electronics. Plug-in protector connects a black wire surge directly into the motherboard - completely bypassing computers best protection. Surge was shunted (connected) to green wire by the plug-in protector.
Page 42 Figure 8 also shows what may happen when an adjacent protector does not earth a surge. A surge was earthed 8000 volts destructively through the TV. Same failure created by a protector without earthing was traced through a network of powered off computer.
How curious. Where surge damage must never happen, plug-in protectors are not used. Effective surge protection is routinely earthed where wires enter the building and up to 50 meters distant from the computer. Let's see. Damage to electronics because the protector was too close to electronics and too far from earth ground. No damage when protector is attached to earth ground and up to 50 meters distant from electronics. What were you saying about 100 years of no damage when protectors are short to earth ground and separated from electronics? Oh. Trader is still having difficulty finding a wall receptacle near the breaker box. No time to learn the science in an article entitled "Protecting Electrical Devices from Lightning Transients"? Too much reality?
Wire impedance is so significant that manufacturers even consider impedance on one inch MOV wires leads. .
Many apartments have such good earthing that only a whole house protector is required. Provided is how to kludge a protector in an apartment. It assumes one can find an AC receptacle closest to the breaker box.
Responsible companies sell protectors with an earthing connection. We make those protectors even better by upgrading earthing. Then plug- in protectors need not earth surges destructively through appliances.
On Apr 22, 8:48 pm, snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net wrote:

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wrote:

No, but you certainly seem to be. A total nutjob if ever there was one. Anyone who follows you should make sure all of their affairs are in order and their life insurance is paid up so the kids, if they aren't killed too, can still go to college someday.
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On Apr 23, 3:08 pm, snipped-for-privacy@dog.com wrote:

Thank you for a technical reply. Those who were so dumb as to also believe Saddam had WMDs would also prove their intelligence by posting insults. Less responsible companies such as APC and Monster Cable sell those scam plug-in protectors approved by salt@dog. Companies who must make equipment so that a house does not burn down provide 'whole house' protectors. Responsible companies such as Intermatic, Cutler-Hammer, Leviton, Keison, Square D, Siemens, and GE. But salty@dog uses venom to know products from these companies will kill kids. As usual, those who insult must know; could not bother to even learn how electricity works.
Did you also read the warranty from those plug-in protectors? Chock full of fine print exemption after exemption. For example, if you have a protector from any other company, then the first company will not honor its warranty. What kind of warranty is that? Companies recommended by salty@dog even write warranties that can never be honored. They are preaching to people such as salty@dog who is expert because he can attack - and never posts even one technical number.
A majority believe plug-in myths for the same reason a majority also believed Saddam had WMDs. They were told. Therefore it must be true. If facts contradict their reality, then attack the messenger. salty@dog (and 'experts' like him) do this. Venom was also sufficient to prove Saddam had WMDs. Under the new rules of extremism, it must be true only because salty@dog says so.
Accurately described is what makes an Intermatic protector so effective. Without an earthed Intermatic, plug-in protectors can even contribute to adjacent appliance damage - Page 42 Figure 8. With the Intermatic and proper earthing, then surges that the plug-in protector might protect from are made irrelevant. Any protector without that short (low impedance) connection to earth ground is ineffective protection - and promoted by salty@dog venom. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground so that surge energy need not dissipate (destroy appliances) inside a building.
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OK, now we have Tom's list of the "responsible" companies who know all about surge protection. Funny thing though, most of these responsible companies on the list actually sell plug in surge protectors as part of their product lines.
Intermatic sells plug-ins: http://www.intermatic.com/Default.asp?action=subcat&sid=144&cid=46&did=6
http://www.intermatic.com/Default.asp?action=subcat&sid=146&cid=46&did=6
http://www.intermatic.com/Default.asp?action=subcat&sid=145&cid=46&did=6
Metal Surge Strips Industrial Point of Use Protection IG11266BLK10 6 outlet metal plug strip surge protection with 10 foot cord and lighted on/off switch. 15 amp resettable breaker. Black metal housing.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--

Metal Surge Protection Devices IG11246
4 outlet metal plug strip surge protection with 6 foot cord and
  Click to see the full signature.
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snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net wrote:

<snip>
http://www.leviton.com/OA_HTML/ibeCCtpSctDspRte.jsp?section"332&minisite028
<snip>
<snip>
http://www2.sea.siemens.com/Products/Residential-Electrical/Product/Surge-Protection/Protection-at-the-Point-of-Use.htm?languagecode=en
<snip>
Nice list.
You can add Cuttler Hammer - they make plug-in suppressors.
And looking at another favorite of w_ - SquareD *service panel* suppressors:
For the 'best' suppressor - SDSB1175C - The literature says "electronic equipment may need additional protection by installing plug-in [suppressors] at the point of use." - The connected equipment warranty $ is double when the suppressors "is used in conjunction with ... a point of use surge protective device."
For the next best suppressor - QO2175SB and HOM2175SB - The connected equipment warranty $ does not include "electronic devices such as: microwave ovens, audio and stereo components, video equipment, televisions, and computers."
Alas - all but one of w_'s "responsible companies" are actually irresponsible and "hype myths".
And what a surprise, w_ had no real response. I wonder why?

On the contrary, w_ was chief advisor to W on Wmds. Note the corresponding lack of support for w_s claim that plug-in suppressors do NOT work.
Good news w_ - religious fanatics can be cured!!! Look in the yellow pages for "deprogrammers".
--
bud--

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Unlike salty@dog, I don't post about things I know nothing about. Science reality is not provided by posting insults. Old dogs cannot be taught new tricks. And properly earthed 'whole house' protectors such as the Intermatic can provide more that sufficient surge protection. The protector is only as effective as its earth ground.
On Apr 24, 6:19am, snipped-for-privacy@dog.com wrote:

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Hi,
Thanks for help and info. Appreciate it.
You are right; the 4870 model doesn't seem to be listed anymore.
Probably replaced by something newer. Will give them a call Monday and ask.
Bob
-----------------------------------

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Accurate replies define protection as earth ground. No protector is protection. Protection is where that surge energy gets dissipated - earth ground. Protectors are simply connecting devices to earth.
Therefore the Intermatic will only be as effective as the earth ground - as others have noted. That means a breaker box ground wire should not go up over the foundation and down to earth. Instead, that ground wire should be through the foundation and down to earth. Every wire foot shorter means better surge protection. No sharp bends. No splices. And all grounds (telephone, cable) make a 'less than 10 foot' connection to this earthing electrode.
Most electricians don't have the 'radio frequency electricity' knowledge to appreciate why sharp wire bends to earth means diminished protection. That ground wire must be rerouted separated from other non-earthing wires. Remember, that ground wire is carrying lightning electricity into earth.
Telephone NID box also has a 'whole house' protector. That protector also must be earthed to the same common point. Cable TV needs no protector since it gets earthed only with a wire. But again, connection should be 'less than 10 feet', no sharp bends, etc.
How to make that Intermatic even better? Expand a single point earth ground with more rods or buried bare copper wire. If your utilities do not enter at a common location, then the buried wire interconnects all ground electrodes to create a single point ground and to further enhance earthing. See a utility app note: http://www.cinergy.com/surge/ttip08.htm
Most electricians don't understand why they must 'exceed' post 1990 National Electrical Code requirements since electricians only understand 60 Hertz electricity - not RF electricity. What makes any protector effective? Its connection to earth.
Same protector that makes lightning surges irrelevant also makes irrelevant the 'inside the house' surge. If household appliances are creating surges, then you are trooping daily to hardware stores for new dimmer switches, clock radios, and bathroom GFCIs. Why are you not replacing these devices daily? Protection inside all electronics makes those 'inside the house' surges completely irrelevant.
Install a 'whole house' protector so that significant protection already inside all appliances is not overwhelmed. IOW we install protectors to earth direct lightning strikes and to remain functional. Yes, MOV protectors are sufficient sized to earth direct lightning and not fail. Then protection inside all appliances is not overwhelmed. How good will that protection be? How good is your earthing connection - both with better electrodes AND with shorter wire connections? A protector is only as effective as its earth ground - where surge energy must be dissipated.
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w_tom wrote:

The best information on surges and surge protection I have seen is at: http://www.mikeholt.com/files/PDF/LightningGuide_FINALpublishedversion_May051.pdf - "How to protect your house and its contents from lightning: IEEE guide for surge protection of equipment connected to AC power and communication circuits" published by the IEEE in 2005 (the IEEE is the dominant organization of electrical and electronic engineers in the US). And also: http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/practiceguides/surgesfnl.pdf - "NIST recommended practice guide: Surges Happen!: how to protect the appliances in your home" published by the US National Institute of Standards and Technology in 2001
The IEEE guide is aimed at those with some technical background. The NIST guide is aimed at the unwashed masses.

Even with a very good resistance to earth of 10 ohms and a fairly strong earth current of 1,000A the power system ground rises to 10,000V above 'absolute' earth potential. Protection has more to do with keeping ground references together - short 'ground' wires from signal entrance protectors to the 'ground' at the power service. The NIST surge guru, and author of the NIST guide, has written "the impedance of the grounding system to `true earth' is far less important than the integrity of the bonding of the various parts of the grounding system."
The priority is not short connection to the same earthing electrode. The priority is short connection from signal entry protectors to the 'ground' at the power service.

"Needs no protector"? The IEEE guide says "there is no requirement to limit the voltage developed between the core and the sheath. .... The only voltage limit is the breakdown of the F connectors, typically ~24 kV." And "there is obviously the possibility of damage to TV tuners and cable modems from the very high voltages that can be developed, especially from nearby lightning." (A plug-in suppressor will limit the voltage from core to shield.)

For plug-in suppressors, the IEEE guide explains (starting pdf page 40) they work primarily by CLAMPING the voltage on all wires (signal and power) to the common ground at the suppressor. Plug-in suppressors do not work primarily by earthing (or stopping or absorbing). The guide explains earthing occurs elsewhere.

According to NIST guide, US insurance information indicates equipment most frequently damaged by lightning is computers with a modem connection TVs, VCRs and similar equipment (presumably with cable TV connections). All can be damaged by high voltages between power and signal wires.

Service panel suppressors are a real good idea.
What does the NIST guide say? "Q - Will a surge protector installed at the service entrance be sufficient for the whole house? A - There are two answers to than question: Yes for one-link appliances [electronic equipment], No for two-link appliances [equipment connected to power AND phone or cable or....]. Since most homes today have some kind of two-link appliances, the prudent answer to the question would be NO - but that does not mean that a surge protector installed at the service entrance is useless."
A service panel suppressor by itself does not guarantee there will not be damaging voltage between power and signal wires.
--
bud--

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bud-- wrote:

A phone line is the most dangerous line in your house, unless you have speakers in trees. We worked on a smart house that had $40,000 in equipment damage when lightning hit a tree next to the pool. It travelled the speaker lines into the house, thru the distributed sound system, thru the distributed tv antenna system, thru the phone and security system and the centralized lighting control. Everything was tied together. The grounding system did work, at least there were no fires. Kitchen appliances were about the only thing unaffected.
Everything was put pack in place, except speakers and lights in the trees. Opto isolators with transorbs were added where the systems were directly interconnected.
-- larry/dallas
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