Homeopathics exposed - Yay!

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wrote:

"for the most part charlatans" "biggest scam going"
Yessiree, that's openly defending fraud, alright. Thanks for pointing it out.
You really need to stop being so emotional. It's unseemly. Let me pose a hypothetical analogy: You wake up in a clearing in a very dense forest. How big is the forest?
What you are saying, in your emotionally-fraught state, is that you know how big the forest is from just standing there in the clearing. You seem to believe that all progress proceeds in a straightforward linear fashion with no errors, no backtracking, no lost knowledge and with absolute certitude. I can understand you believing that about yourself, as you frequently profess the same, but I am surprised that you think that about humanity and progress in general.
If someone disagrees with you, you call them an idiot. Many people disagree with you, so there are a lot of idiots out there, but miraculously you believe these idiots have no impact on life, knowledge and progress. How is that possible with so many idiots out there?
Progress is clearly not without drawbacks that may easily outweigh the benefits, as shown by lead pipes, the introduction of tin cans, tobacco and pollution from many sources.
Yet, you know. That's special.
R
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wrote:

Exactly my point. You even admit that they're frauds, yet defend them anyhow. Like I said, "even if he doesn't understand what he's said".

No, you're a fool. You think I'm emotional because I point out that obvious fact.

More lies, but that's to be expected of you.

You *ARE* and idiot. You prove it here daily.

More irrelevance; your best argument.

Well, I didn't say you took the short bus to school, but if you say so...
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Dogs poop in your backyard - kill them off!
======= Dogs. Mosquitoes. Same thing. SWAT!
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Discovering that ammonia cleans clothes wasn't science? Discovering willow bark helped aches and pains wasn't science because they didn't know the chemical composition in the main ingredient, salicylic acid? How about those stupid Japanese sword makers - they really had horrible results since they wouldn't have been able to pass a sophomore year course in metallurgy. Or those incredibly silly Mayans thinking they could predict planetary and stellar alignments and they didn't even have telescopes. The list is as endless as your myopic emotional beliefs.
R
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RicodJour wrote:

I think you do not grasp the theory behing homeopathy. The theory is that something akin or affiliated with the malady under treatment, when ingested in minuscule amounts (I mean REALLY insignificant amounts) will trigger a bodily response to rehabilitate the diseased organ.

No, willow bark was ingested in therapeutic amounts. Homeopathic remedies are ingested in nanogram concentrations. A typical dose is equivalent to dropping one aspirin tablet in a five hundred gallon tank of water then asking the patient to place one drop of the resultant mixture under the tongue.
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It's not even that. The person sees *nothing* of the material, it's diluted so far (10:1 30 times, or some such). It's "benefits" are somehow impressed on the water molecules, making it non-toxic, yet beneficial.

It's even worse than that.
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First off, what is a therapeutic amount? If you mean the minimum amount that will work, okay, how do you factor in the placebo effect? That means no amount of aspirin _can_ help you. And I am pretty sure that a nanogram is infinitely larger than none.
You are familiar with vaccines. A totally minuscule amount is injected and the body takes over from there. If it works for a vaccine, will it work for something not injected? Well, the Polio vaccine can be taken orally, and it's still a minuscule amount. Will it work with other stuff? I don't know, and neither do you - or anybody else for that matter. The immune system was around for a fair bit of time before it was discovered, yet it managed to work just fine before that.
Saying that you know something without a shadow of a doubt about something as complex as the human body is simply foolish. If you said take all of the blood out of a body, or cutoff it's head, and it will die, or something simple like that, I'd agree with you. But you're not, so I don't. I'll repeat - I'm saying I don't know and neither does anybody else.
We have just barely gotten started understanding the human body. Don't pretend we're done.
R
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RicodJour wrote:

Homeopathic is VERY, VERY symptom specific. Even you have use it properly like not handling the tablet with fingers, etc. No sense talking about it for some one who never tried it or does not understand.
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There are people who have not tried things, and people who do not understand, and then there are people who do not try to understand things.
Of these, clearly the last are the worst.
R
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Hee Haw.
R
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RicodJour wrote:

Hmmm, You do realize 75% of modern medicine is still comes from natural source. Your ignorance is dripping all over you. Give me one example, do you know how OTC product Imodium is made?
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Ask fruits and vegetables.

Funny, that.

Your thinking gives me fits, not sure about the ben part.
Animals manufacture meat, skin, fur and all sorts of other things for their own purposes, and we still go after the benefits. Likewise with plants.
So to sum up your position - if man didn't make it for man, it's useless. Good point.
R
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harry wrote:

Yep. Long gone are the days when a botanist found a new chemical in a rare plant and everybody scurried around looking for a disease it might cure.
Today, scientists study the disease to find its areas of vulnerabilities and from there create the chemical that attacks that vulnerability.
I doubt there's been a new drug extracted from plants in fifty years. Or if there has, the number in that category is vanishingly small compared to those drugs created from scratch.
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You doubt. Well, that's good enough for me! Oh, wait, no it's not. You're just using a weasel word while you're trying to score points. Just one more vast area where you have a smattering of information and a plenitude of opinion.
A very good customer's wife has a cousin who goes into the jungle two or three times a year and brings back plants for research. He's nearly died several times from one thing or another, but he is paid very handsomely by drug companies for bringing back promising candidates.
The reason that you wouldn't hear the stuff about plants in the raw is threefold. Primarily it is because the drug companies are the ones with the deep pockets, the only ones that can afford to jump through the FDA hoops over years of submittals and trials, and the only ones that can fund research without begging from the government. I've also heard rumors that the drug companies have a new guy, he's called a "lobbiest", but he may be part time.
The second reason - the drug companies would make no money from a straight up plant medicinal remedy, because they couldn't patent it, or trademark it, or control it entirely. When they find something, they synthesize the active ingredients and then control it.
Third and most obvious reason, you don't listen very well. Your Google seems to be broken. http://www.uic.edu/classes/osci/osci590/12_2%20The%20Search%20for%20Rain%20Forest%20Drugs.htm
Old article http://www.ens-newswire.com/ens/oct2003/2003-10-10-02.html but I particularly like this part: "In a commentary published alongside the study, Jeffrey McNeeley, chief scientist of the IUCN-World Conservation Union, pointed out that some bioprospecting efforts have been called �biopiracy,� such as when a drug company made $200 million in profits selling cancer drugs developed from Madagascar�s rosy periwinkle while that country �got nothing.� "
And more on biopiracy: http://nie.wikispaces.com/Brazil+And+US+Pharmaceuticals Drug companies have been taking plants from less developed countries and reaping staggering profits. The countries are fighting back. Just your usual humdrum run of the mill story of drug companies playing for profits and not for cures. It's anti-human and absolutely capitalism in its lowest form.
It seems that the very idea that medicines can come from plants upsets you. It's really not a threat to you, a threat, I mean, and no one will force you to take any medicine unless you keep ignoring reality that doesn't fit in with your preconceived notions.
R
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So...while on holiday all tourists are investigating the properties of the local flora and fauna for possible medicinal benefit? That seems like a tall order for a couple or three weeks. When do they find the time to go parasailing?
R
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I thought it was because of all of the recreational drugs. Apparently Harry has been hoovering up more than his share. ;)
R
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No, but 96.4% of all statistics are made up on the spot.
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wrote:

You continue to defend what even you admit is fraud. What a dummy!

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RicodJour wrote:

The amount necessary to achieve the desired result.

You don't.

Sorry, I don't understand those two sentences.

"Miniscule" was not the proper word, and for that I apologize. In homeopathy, the amount of the presumed "active ingredient" is present in undetectable amounts. The amount of the "drug" is essentially zero and no known test can find it.

No. Injectable drugs are injectable for a reason and the reason is that they won't work if introduced in any other manner. That is, if given orally, stomach acids will destroy them, if attempted as nose drops or suppositories or some other vehicle, the body will destroy any efficacy long before the drug can do its work.

And minuscule is way greater than zero.

Ignorance is not a reason to implement anything. If someone has terminal cancer, no physician is going to say "I don't know if waving chicken claws over the body while dancing a jig will cure the disease, so let's try it." You go with what is known to work.
In the case of Homeopathy, there is no instance where it has been shown to be effective. There are, conversely, hundreds of trials and thousands of examples in which Homeopathy has been found to NOT work. And "well, it might work this time" is not a reasonable position either.

Again, ignorance is not a reason in deciding a course of treatment. Those who administer treatments, however, are NOT ignorant. They do know that Homeopathy does not work, never has worked, and cannot be made to work. They know this because the theory behind Homeopathy does not follow the provable laws of biology or physiology and that thousands upon thousands of controlled tests have NEVER demonstrated efficacy for ANY Homeopathic regimen.

We know a lot more than we did in the late 18th century when Homeopathy was concocted.
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such thing as a therapeutic amount. There is a therapeutic window being the lowest dose where you see results and the highest dose where there are no nasty side effects

--
"Even I realized that money was to politicians what the ecalyptus tree is to
koala bears: food, water, shelter and something to crap on."
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