Generator Size Based On Average Kilowatts

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What did that Honda cost? My ETQ brand 1200 watt unit was $140, shipped (this about five years ago). Says it runs some hours on a gallon, can't remember. Nine hours or something. (Amazon.com product link shortened)77616848&sr=8-1&keywords=etq+1200
OK, make that five and a half hours. On half load. Mine didn't start except on ether. I bought some 91 octane pure gas, and it runs and starts much better.
. Christopher A. Young Learn about Jesus www.lds.org .
On 8/27/2013 11:05 AM, (PeteCresswell) wrote:

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Per Stormin Mormon:

Honda's are not cheap.
I can't recall exactly, but it was somewhere in the 800's - and on the high end.
--
Pete Cresswell

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I'd dare to guess that you get good clean power. And I'd guess that when the neighbor is out of gas for his big generator, you'll be purring along on your second gallon of gas, with 8 more gal left in your gas cans.
Wait till he sends his kid over to borrow a cup of gas. "No, boy, but you can come in and get warm for a few.... you look cold. How is school going?"
. Christopher A. Young Learn about Jesus www.lds.org .
On 8/27/2013 2:58 PM, (PeteCresswell) wrote:

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Per Stormin Mormon:

That was another major consideration. I wanted an inverter-type gennie because of all the computer-type stuff I have.
I don't know enough to make a decision, but it seems at least possible that, with all the computer stuff on UPS', the clean waveform might be moot... but, like I said, I don't know enough so I went with the conservative approach.
If outages were frequent and/or medical considerations mandated continuous power and/or I found I had too much money laying around, I'd have to think about having a nat gas hookup to something like the Honda EM5000iS inverter generator of an EU6500....
Except for A/C, I'm at a loss as to why I'd ever need more than 4KW continuous - probably more like 3KW. This is based on observation of the readouts on my APC UTS-6H smart transfer switch while it is running our house on a 2,000 watt generator.
Dunno what our central A/C takes, but it's got to be way out of proportion to the rest of the load.
If A/C were a "must" I think I would have a couple of small window boxes or freestanding units in storage for use under generator power: one for the kitchen and one for the bedroom - and they would determine whether to get a 5 or 6.5 KW generator.
--
Pete Cresswell

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wrote:

Aren't they all "inverter type", now?

Computer gear uses switching power supplies. The waveform doesn't matter. Certainly the voltage doesn't (within the 90-250V range). They'll probably even work on DC.
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Mine spins a coil. So, not all.
. Christopher A. Young Learn about Jesus www.lds.org .
On 8/27/2013 6:26 PM, snipped-for-privacy@attt.bizz wrote:

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On Tuesday, August 27, 2013 7:58:06 PM UTC-4, Stormin Mormon wrote:

All generators that are used for the kind of use being discussed spin a coil, even the inverter types. It's the rest of the generator where the differences lie. The conventional rely on the constant motor speed for the frequency and part of the voltage regulation. Those with an inverter take the generator output and in turn synthesize the AC waveform. One big thing that does is decouple the engine speed. Low output, the engine can run at much lower RPM, using less fuel and making less noise.

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On Tuesday, August 27, 2013 6:26:16 PM UTC-4, snipped-for-privacy@attt.bizz wrote:

No, only the most expensive generators are inverter type. Not the typical 6KW that you buy for $800 to $1200. The inverter ones I've seen have been 3 to 4X the price of the equivalent conventional types.

I wouldn't expect computer gear to be the most sensitive to the generator type either. But on the other hand, when I'm running on any generator, I generally only use the essentials. And if I had a 21" TV or a 55" one, I'd use the 21 during the power outage. A neighbor had a small ~2KW generator and his coffee maker died while it was on it. But who knows why....
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On Tue, 27 Aug 2013 16:59:54 -0700 (PDT), " snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net"

I would have thought that with the cost of electronics falling through the floor, there was no point in the complications of constant-speed engines anymore.

Probably,but computers use so little power it really matter. Even my 42" plasma TV only uses 125W (the older one is 500W). Some are addicted to coffee. ;-)
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On Tuesday, August 27, 2013 8:40:35 PM UTC-4, snipped-for-privacy@attt.bizz wrote:

The cost of electronics that continues to drop off a cliff is where you can put ever increasing numbers of transistors on a small piece of silicon, ie Moore's Law. This inverter stuff needs some of that to control it, but it also needs the much larger power electronics, that hasn't shrunk, needs heat sinks, etc. You can't put 6KW through a wee little chip.
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Also economics of scale. They can sell a few hundred million phones, but only a million or two generators.
. Christopher A. Young Learn about Jesus www.lds.org .
On 8/27/2013 8:50 PM, snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net wrote:

transistors on

inverter stuff needs some of that to control it, but it also needs the much larger power electronics, that hasn't shrunk, needs heat sinks, etc. You

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On Tue, 27 Aug 2013 17:50:35 -0700 (PDT), " snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net"

The cost of all electronics is in free-fall. ...not just $/transistor.
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On Wednesday, August 28, 2013 1:46:54 PM UTC-4, snipped-for-privacy@attt.bizz wrote:

The prices of all electronic devices are not in a free fall. The large price drops over time are typically in either new technology that is initially very expensive and then drops off as it gets into high volume production, an example being LCD panels. Or in the application of Moore's Law, where you can pack more transistors onto a given size piece of silicon. The last, most powerful force, clearly doesn't apply to power semiconductors for obvious reasons. And power electronics is a relatively mature field. Sure there are some cost reductions still occurring all but these components are still very expensive compared to say a microcontroller capable of running an auto dashboard display or an appliance. You can buy one of those for less than a $1. The cost of power electronics is many times that. Don't believe me, take a look at what a 6KW inverter costs. Then explain how you could put one of those, plus all the other extra stuff needed, like electronic throttle control, onto a $700 or $1000 conventional 6KW generator.
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On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 06:40:22 -0700 (PDT), " snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net"

Bullshit. They have been for forty years.

Irrelevant. Because one area is falling faster than another doesn't mean the bottom isn't dropping out of both. The fact is that it's getting cheaper to process silicon.
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On Thursday, August 29, 2013 5:09:44 PM UTC-4, snipped-for-privacy@attt.bizz wrote:

Here you are, the guy who thought all generators now used inverters, now telling us how all semiconductor components are in a free fall regardless of what they are used for.

That is just flat out wrong. It isn't getting cheaper, it's getting more expensive. As you go down in feature size, the cost of the fabs and the processing increases.. Everything from the filtration needed to maintain the clean room to the cost of the lithography eqpt. A new state of the art fab can cost $5bil. In the 90s, it was $1bil. What makes the cost of the component go down and/or the functionality/computing power, etc go up, is that as the feature size decreases, we can pack way more transistors on the same size piece of silicon, or alternatively put the same number of transistors on a smaller piece of silicon. So it costs more to process a wafer using 22nm process, but you get a CPU with 2x the transistors. And wafer size has grown over the years too, so you can get more die per wafer. That is of huge benefit if your building microprocessors, microcontrollers, memory, etc. where you need to pack millions of transistors onto a single die. But the big benefit of reducing the feature size doesn't apply to power semiconductors, like an SCR that has to handle 6KW of power. You can't reduce it in size like you can a memory chip or CPU. If it worked that way, a 6KW inverter would cost $10 today, It doesn't. But apparently you think it does.
Or how about one of the simplest examples of power electronics, the light dimmer? There is a market with worldwide competition and huge volume. A basic dimmer today is $15. That's about what it cost in the 80s. .It wasn't $1500, or $150. Allowing for inflation, yeah, it's come down. The design and components used today are the same. But it's not following Moore's Law, because an SCR can't. The major cost decline for those components was seen long ago and they are not in a "free fall".
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On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 16:49:44 -0700 (PDT), " snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net"

You really like to lie, Trader. I said semiconductors in general are in freefall, not just highly integrated semiconductors. Not all components are. Some a *highly* specialized so are at a premium. Each class of semiconductors is certainly dropping in price constantly.

You're an idiot, Trader. I've been in the business for 40 years. *EVERYTHING* is cheaper.

Absurd.

COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT.
<More irrelevant shit snipped.>
You may continue with your lies, now.
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On 8/29/2013 7:03 PM, snipped-for-privacy@attt.bizz wrote:
**********Snip The Argument**********

Things actually kind of flip/flop. I worked in and owned a couple of radio/TV shops (remember them?) and a funny thing happened with TV's and the introduction of new technologies. I recall a horizontal output tube costing $5.00 and a horizontal output transistor costing $25.00 then a period of time passed and prices flipped. It's been many years since I tried to purchase any vacuum tubes but I'll bet they're quite expensive these days. I remember the TV sets that weighed a ton because of the big power transformer power supplies then a design change had the solid state horizontal output section becoming the switching power supply for all the electronics in the set. I can't forget the hybrids with a solid state chassis except for the horizontal output tube. It finally got to where the only vacuum tube was the CRT, now that's gone. I used to get rebuilt 25" replacement picture tubes for repairing TV's all the time. In the late 1970's I attended a seminar put on by RCA for the local electronic repair shops where RCA demonstrated the new technology in their TV sets. It was an all solid state chassis and the fellow from RCA blew our minds when he turned the line voltage down to 80vac and the set still had a clear picture which shrank in a bit on the sides. It was a demonstration of the low voltage tolerance and power regulation of their new TV sets. Most electronic circuit boards still had discrete components including IC chips that were soldered through holes in the boards making replacement of parts quite easy then those darned surface mount circuit boards showed up making things harder to repair but less expensive and often more reliable. I remember being able to repair PC motherboards which had through the hole components that were easy to replace. Darn, there aren't that many radio/TV repair shops left today. There seems to be a cell phone shop on every corner now but most of the consumer electronic devices are pretty much disposable today. I still don't have my flying car dammit! O_o
TDD
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On Fri, 30 Aug 2013 08:43:43 -0500, The Daring Dufas

On a single component level, when technologies change, sure things can get upside down. At the system level, it's all one way. Monotonically.

As others have noted, TVs (monitors) are now throw-away. I don't see that as a bad thing.

That just shows you what the profit margins are on the service (there is no money in the hardware).

My car doesn't fold up into my briefcase, either.
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On 08-30-2013 09:43, The Daring Dufas wrote:

Three hundred thousand dollars: http://www.terrafugia.com/
One hundred thousand dollars: http://mavericklsa.com/
--
Wes Groleau

Alive and Well
  Click to see the full signature.
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On 8/30/2013 11:35 PM, Wes Groleau wrote:

I couldn't afford the fuel much less the dang car! ^_^
TDD
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