gas fires that have no flue

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Humidity below 0oC collapses.
UK winter consists of continual cycle of freeze (-4oC, low humidity) & thaw (+4oC, high humidity). USA winter can be "goes below 0oC and stays below 0oC".
UK 1950s house with moderate ACH & no central heating. - Humidity inside will be very high, most wood will have some cupping, paper & cardboard will be "soft", leave a block of A4 paper out and run it through a laser printer and it will come out as unusable "wood curls". - Brick uninsulated walls are typically near the dew point, condensation with any moisture input is very common
UK 2000s house with few ACH & (wet) radiator central heating. - Humidity inside will be very low, everything will be "biscuit dry" - Brick uninsulated walls are typically above the dew point, but moisture buildup due to few ACH is not removed which can cause condensation just the same
The big moisture input with (wet) radiator central heating is of course people drying washing on radiators :-) The few ACH means that moisture just builds up, eventually eliminated - but in the mean time the humdity can cycle from very low levels to very high. It is this that can cause furniture problems are localised humidity.
Yes heating air does reduce its RH. However with ACH of 5-8 this will just not happen - you will get wild swings in humidity and localised high/low humidity.
USA tends to use recirculating ducted warm air heating - good for managing humidity and permitting multiple heat input choices (heat pump, electric backup, gas/oil/wood... dodgy DIY nuclear) and is free of water leak/freeze risk from wet radiator systems.
A lot of the UK housing stock has followed a peculiar route: - Uninsulated brick walls + Uninsulated loft (12.5mm sheetrock to sub- zero loft) + Uninsulated floors - Typically 4-7-12 wall vents, some of which restricted in winter - Then fit Double Glazing believing 50% of all heat loss is through windows - it is not! :-) - Wet (radiator) central heating is then added to *brute-force* the house warm - Cold uninsulated walls & ceilings create high heat loss causing plunging cold draughts - Open flue often have a radiant gas fire in it, which sucks heated air up the chimney, pulling in very damp outside air - Wet (radiator) central heating then brute-force heats this drawn in air to compensate
It is a quite amusing "someone actually planned this?" system. Getting rid of open-flue is good, but people do like a radiant heat source.
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With *HIGH AIR CHANGES PER HOUR* the OUTSIDE humidity will DIRECTLY affect INTERIOR humidity if there is *INSUFFICIENT* heating.
UK house with ACH 5+ from 8-12 vents and 2 gas fire open flue chimney: - 2 open flue chimney draught SUCK in damp air ALL OVER THE HOUSE. - Humidity in the 2 gas fire heated rooms is LOW, temps 21oC. - Humidity in the UNHEATED rest of house is HIGH, temps 16-12oC.
UK houses with LIMITED heating and HIGH 5+ ACH are *DAMP*.
UK houses with WHOLE-HOUSE heating are NOT damp. UK houses with WHOLE-HOUSE heating CAN become damp if people dry wet washing on radiators and stuff up every vent to reduce ACH <1 in order to reduce energy - instead of fixing the non-existent insulation.
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wrote:

Outside humidity will affect the interior humidity, sure, but raising the temperature 30C will *always* drop whatever it is outside through the floor. Are you saying that you don't heat your homes?

Oh, you don't heat your whole house. How stupid is that? Well, I would suppose that you wouldn't run ventless gas logs in that part, either. <boggle>

The point of the ventless gas logs is heat (while looking nice), which will lower RH significantly. Water vapor from combustion is welcome. Many have humidifiers built into their furnaces for exactly this reason. I'm hoping the gas logs make this unnecessary (humidifiers are asking for mold and other nasties).
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Stupid people not wanting to spend >10% gross income on heat? Stupid people living 1-person in 3-person house? Stupid people not having full "whole-house heating"?
UK history... #1 UK housing construction: - <1930 solid double brick, walls U=2.11, windows U=4.5 - >1930 cavity double brick, walls U=1.73, windows U=4.5 - >1970 cavity brick & block/timber frame, walls U=1.55 - >1995 cavity brick & block/timber, <1.5 ACH, insulated, walls U=1.00 - >2008 cavity brick & block/timber, <1 ACH, insulated, walls U=0.35
Vast amount of housing has HIGH thermal loss & HIGH heating costs.
#2 UK heating: - 1950 - coal/wood fire in 2-3 chimney - 2x 8kW output - whole house heated. - 1960 - gas radiant fire in chimney - 2x 3kW output - 2 rooms only heated. - 1980 - gas boiler, wet radiators - 24kW output - whole house heated.
Vast amount of housing is relying on HEAT-INPUT not insulation.
UK open flue chimney is the problem: #1 What is the problem with flueless gas fires in UK? - Such fires require a very large 4in*4in Free Air vent - In houses without chimney's I see no problem - In houses with chimneys they will suck lots of cold air in
High %age (1650-1970) of UK housing has 2-3 chimney: - 2 chimney vented, unused - 400W up it. - 2 chimney gas fire off - 800W up it. - 2 chimney gas fire on - 1400W up it. - 2 chimney open unused - 1800W up it.
**Now add your 4in*4in Free Air vent somewhere** :-)
#2 What is the alternative to flueless gas fires in UK? - Balanced-flue gas fire can be fitted into an EXTERIOR wall - These are ROOM SEALED, combining air-vent & flue in a tube
#3 So what is the market for flueless gas fires in UK? - "Hang anywhere" in recent houses/apartments with no chimney
That is most of the houses/apartments being built, but few against the installed housing stock. Additionally balanced-flue will win-out probably on cost if an exterior wall is available (which is likely re current UK narrow-tall-box designs).
I love the *idea*. The problem is when you combine 4in*4in hole and 2-3 chimneys :-)
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wrote:

Hmm, my 2600 sq.ft. house, built with construction methods you seem to look down your nose at, costs less than 1% of my gross income to heat *and* air condition. Either energy is taxed astronomically over there, you need a real job, or you're full of shit. ...likely all three.

There are two of us. We rather like space, though a basement would be even better.

Stupid people having useless space.
<snipped more useless, repeated, ramblings>
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Really? Supermarkets shrinkwrap more intelligent life than you :-)
UK has LOW INSULATION: - <1994 wall U-value == 10mm polystyrene, >2005 == 50mm, >2009 == 100mm. Germany is == 300mm. - UK housing is built #1 as SECURITY for mortgage lender long obsessed with brick construction - UK housing is built #2 for construction jobs, the most efficiency absorber of unemployment, strong anti German/Dutch/USA factory build efficient housing systems - UK housing is built #3 cheap construction due to land price typically 150,000 of a 180,000 Avg UK House Price
UK has high energy bills due to LOW INSULATION: - UK Gas is 3.4p per kWhr -- UK uses 24,000/yr - UK Elec is 10p per kWhr -- UK avg is 4500/yr - Gasoline is about 5.40 / 9$USA a US Imperial gallon.
UK Avg Income: - UK Avg Income = 19,500 including bankers. - Median (50th percentile) Income is circa 18,300.
Two people on Average Earnings - 3.2% on Energy. Single person on Average Earnings - 6.3% on Energy. Retired person on State Pension - >15% on Energy.
Money is ill-targetted on Insulation: - UK Double Glazing has 164yr payback - UK Loft Insulation has 2yr payback - UK Cavity Wall Insulation has 2yr payback - Vast majority of houses get DG, but not the rest
The fundamental UK problem is Restricted Land Supply. It means money from 1984 that should have gone into 1) investment 2) pensions 3) self-start businesses is soaked up into housing for consumerist borrowing that is unsustainable. Taking the channel from 1990 lows and previous decades, inflation adjusted, the average UK house price should be about 68,000 - it is still around 182,000.
Miss-Allocation Of Capital. USA thought it wrote the book? USA is #20 total private & public debt in the world. UK is writing the obituary? UK is #2 total private & public debt in the world, Ireland is #1 writing the obituary.
The unknown is whether Obama manages to create Healthcare AND reduce Big Gov't Cost to pay for it. They shut Washington for 5 days in the winter, if nothing in gov't stopped working start sacking!
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Really.
No, but it's abundantly clear that you're clueless.

A US Imperial gallon? Speakign of clueless...

Like I said, you need a better job.

Your retired should have saved more, huh. I hope you learn a lesson from this.

You're pretty stupid, huh. They go for the 164yr payback but not the two year.

So you agree with me, that your country taxes energy astronomically, you need a real job, and you're full of shit.
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If you have low ACH + no open chimney they should work fine. - I would still price out a Balanced-Flue version (*) - Often Balanced-Flue are cheaper to buy - but costly to install - Balanced-Flue can not be taken with you when you move
(*) - Tube through an exterior wall combines air-intake & flue, room sealed.
For UK housing the problem is 2-3 open-flue chimney. The draw from the 2-3 chimney would suck icy cold air in 24hrs a day thro the 4in*4in vent.
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wrote:

...and run the intake/flue into the master bedroom? LOL!

Block them off.

Have you never heard of a damper? No wonder you spend so much on energy.
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