electric clothes dryer

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What specifically in the above that Bud stated is incorrect?
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On 10/8/2012 3:42 PM, HeyBub wrote:

You edited out: "I am not fond of the term "grounding" because you may be talking about 'bonding' or 'earthing'. Your quote has that problem. (The NEC has started to clarify which use is intended.)"
Looking at the article I was right. The source talks about "grounding". What does the source mean by "grounding"? Might mean connecting branch circuit ground wire (which is how gas pipe is "grounded", at least for residential). Might mean just earthing. Water pipe and structural steel do need to be "bonded". That is not a problem, except that structural steel (usually) and metal water service pipe (always) must be used as an earthing electrode where there is an electrical service in the building. And if connected as an earthing electrode the metal is also "bonded".
The source incorrectly shows a "bonding" connection from the service to a metal water pipe, but the code reference (table 250.66) clearly shows this is a connection as an earthing electrode. "Bonding" rules are different.

Oh how funny. How about a logical argument?

http://www.ct.gov/dph/lib/dph/environmental_health/private_wells/37_Electrical_Grounds_-_A_Controversial_Necessity.pdf
Your source has no problem with "bonding" the water pipe inside the building. If you do that the water pipe will also, in fact, function as an earthing electrode (with all the awful consequence the source supposes). That is probably why the NEC "bonding" rules are similar to the rules for using water pipe as an earthing electrode.

Your source is wrong.
There are 2 separate issues.
One is water pipe. The NEC has required a *single* "supplemental" electrode since 1978 (as dpb writes) and since long before that in some cases. It does not require 3.
Second is that the NEC now requires 3 specific electrodes be part of the earthing system, if present.
Your source rather stupidly says the 3 paths are required as the supplemental electrode for water pipe when one of the paths is metal water service pipe. (And the other 2 paths may not exist.)

My "non-bullshit" source is the National Electrical Code.
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On 10/8/2012 3:42 PM, HeyBub wrote:

You edited out: "I am not fond of the term "grounding" because you may be talking about 'bonding' or 'earthing'. Your quote has that problem. (The NEC has started to clarify which use is intended.) "
Looking at the article that appears to be the problem. The source talks about "grounding". What does the source mean by "grounding"? Might mean connecting branch circuit ground wire (which is how gas pipe is "grounded", at least for residential). Might mean just earthing. Something else? Water pipe and structural steel do need to be "bonded". That is not a problem, except that structural steel (usually) and metal water service pipe (always) must be used as an earthing electrode where there is an electrical service in the building. And if connected as an earthing electrode the metal is also "bonded".
The source incorrectly shows a "bonding" connection from the service to a metal water pipe but the code reference (table 250.66) clearly shows this is a connection as an earthing electrode. "Bonding" rules are different.
It should have been a good source. It was partly correct, but did not (in this article) cover earthing electrodes. The NEC chapter on grounding is probably the most confusing one that is commonly used. IMHO a lot of that is confusion over what "grounding" is supposed to do in a particular instance. That is why I use "earthing", where appropriate.

Oh how funny

http://www.ct.gov/dph/lib/dph/environmental_health/private_wells/37_Electrical_Grounds_-_A_Controversial_Necessity.pdf
Your source doesn't want the water pipe used as an earthing electrode, but has no problem with "bonding" it to the electrical service. If you do that the water pipe will also, in fact, function as an earthing electrode (with all the awful consequence the source supposes). That is probably why the NEC "bonding" rules are similar to the rules for using water pipe as an earthing electrode.

Your source is wrong.
There are 2 separate issues.
One is water pipe. The NEC has required a *single* "supplemental" electrode since 1978 (as dpb writes) and since long before that in some cases. It does not require 3.
Second is that the NEC now requires 3 specific electrodes be part of the earthing system, if present.
Your source rather stupidly says the 3 paths are required as the supplemental electrode for metal water service pipe when one of the paths is metal water service pipe. And the other 2 may not exist.

My "non-bullshit" source is the National Electrical Code.
(Apologies if this double posts.)
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In the old house growing up, I started getting bit in the shower. Dad called electrician. Water meter strap was breaking contact. Back when the house was built, 1959, the box was at other end of house, tied to near water pipe. I don't think there was any other ground rod. After I had the box updated, guy installed ground rods at that end of house, and ran copper ground wire tall the way to water pipe in front of water meter. I'm sure that's how current house is wired.
Greg
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On 10/6/2012 7:35 AM, John Grabowski wrote: ...

...
By current NEC requirements, "Yes". One is (properly installed) Code-compliant while the other (on its own) cannot be made so because it is expressly not allowed as the sole grounding system. This basic requirement goes as far back as the 1978 revision of NEC.
Before the days of plastic and other nonconducting plumbing materials it was allowed but is no longer approved by Code. There's a good chance that if nothing else there's a insulating connection at the meter and not necessarily jumpered any longer. And, if the inlet line is plastic as is now so common, even if the house is copper as soon as it transitions to the external line, "poof" goes the ground.
Now, _IF_ (the proverbial big if) there is no interruption from the grounding point back to earth, yes, a metal plumbing system can function as a grounding electrode but the point is that whether it _can_ doesn't mean it _should_ or is allowed.
--
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On 10/6/2012 11:48 AM, dpb wrote:

The NEC requires the resistance to earth for a ground rod to be 25 ohms or less. Or install 2 and there is no requirement. What happens when you connect a hot wire to a 25 ohm-to-earth ground rod?
I have seen resistances to earth of 3 ohms and 0.1 ohms as typical for municipal metal water systems.

Water service pipe, minimum 10 ft metal in the earth, is *required* to be used as an earthing electrode, just as it has been since time began.

Bonding across the meter is *required*, just as it has been since time began.

Which is, of course, why a "supplemental" electrode is now required.

Not only is it allowed, it is *required*.
Only three electrodes are *required* to be used as earthing electrodes - if present.
One is a water service pipe (10 ft ...).
Another is a "concrete encased electrode" (commonly called a Ufer ground) which is required to be created in most new construction.
The earthing conductor required to connect to a ground rod (which is a crappy electrode)is #6. The earthing conductor required to connect to a "concrete encased electrode" is #4. The earthing conductor required to connect to a metal water service pipe goes up with the size of the electrical service and can be as large as 3/0.
Do you suppose there is a reason for that?
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On 10/7/2012 10:54 AM, bud-- wrote:

...
...
The key words there are "if present".
It certainly is _NOT_ part of NEC that there is _REQUIRED_ to be 10-ft of metallic water service pipe.
What is required is that any metal plumbing system that is present be bonded _TO_ the earthing system (since 1978) but as noted, a metal plumbing system of whatever length is NOT, by itself, Code-compliant (again, since 1978).
--
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On 10/7/2012 9:40 AM, dpb wrote:

Of course not.

For at least 50 years the NEC has required a "supplemental" electrode for water pipe electrodes *if* the water service pipe was likely to be replaced by plastic. The 1978 change required a "supplemental" electrode on all new installations.
If there is a plastic water service, the metal water pipes in the building must be "bonded" to the electrical system. There are separate rules for "bonding".
But the basic requirement has not changed - if there is 10 ft of water pipe in the earth the pipe is *required* to be used (and connected) as an earthing electrode (not "bonded"). The earthing electrode is always a "system" which may be one electrode, or several may be required and others can be added. A metal water service pipe (10 ft...) is one of the electrodes that is *required* to be included.
If the water pipe is not included as an earthing electrode the installation is clearly not "code-compliant".
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On Fri, 5 Oct 2012 16:38:27 -0400, "John Grabowski"

Copper all the way to the street is getting rare, that is why they added the supplemental electrode requirement to 250.53(D)(2)
There is also a requirement that we provide an intersystem bonding terminal for the other services to ground to. 250.94
The best ground electrode is the rebar in your foundation but that needs to be installed in construction. It is required in Florida now in new construction because the rebar is required in the structural code so it is "available" when they pour. That is part of the footer inspection.
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Doug wrote:

Hi, Sorry to say that your idea is baseless and funny. Board has protection circuit built-in but when powerful surge(spike) comes down, anythng can get damaged no matter what protection you have. I often see board failures caused by heat due to under-rated cheap component or cold solder joint(s). Repairing is not easy because they use ASIC in many cases which is difficult to obtain.
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Doug wrote:

True.
A surge protector for a high-current appliance (like an electric clothes dryer) is not something that I think would be cost effective as it would be for something like a TV, stereo or computer.
A better solution would be to trip the breaker supplying power to your dryer (or unplug the dryer if conveinent) when you're not using it - or at least when you know a thunderstorm is approaching.
I live in a some-what lightning-prone area, and I unplug many electronic devices in my home (and trip a few breakers) when I know a thunderstorm is coming.
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Of course not, because as usual, you're clueless. It has nothing to do with the current the device draws. It has everything to do with high-current appliances like dryers and ovens today having ELECTRONIC COMPONENTS in them. But it's OK. I won't think all Canadians are stooopid just because you are.

How about you're not home when the thunderstorm is approaching? Or sleeping? Or it's a surge from something other than a thunderstorm?

Try unplugging your computer and leaving it unplugged.
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In our rural area, a lightning storm maybe up to two miles away, surge/ sag the AC mains so much that it affects the telephone line too. Our 'digital' phones think there's an incoming call and you get a standard, single ring.
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On 10/5/2012 10:51 AM, Robert Macy wrote:

I've installed hard wired surge arresters on the AC units of customers in rural areas to prevent blown capacitors and damage to circuit boards. The move away from relay logic to solid state then microprocessor controls has made the equipment much more vulnerable to power spikes and surges. O_o
TDD
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Home Guy wrote:

Um, they should be about the same price. The usual load on a surge protector is irrelevant to its job of preventing surges.
For example, here are 31 220v surge protectors, all but 5 under $30.
Your average lightning bolt comes in at about 30,000 amps. That's for negative lightning. Positive lightning is about one magnitude greater (300,000 amps).
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Older appliances tended to use slightly more costly analog controls, however they tnded to last forever..
newer appliances use glitzy electronic board controls, that cost less to build but fail easily, and can be a hassle to replace.....
I have a whirpool dishwasher that got 5 control boards in its first year of life... the service tech who replaced them said it wasnt me it was a poor design board......
its sad what has happened to manufacturing:(
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Depending on the year of your home construction, you may also wish to consider disconnecting the phone lines to your computers.
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I live in the lightning capital of the world (Florida) and I never unplug anything. The answer is the panel protector John spoke of along with additional protection for some selected equipment, typically things with more than one input like TVs and computers. You also want to be sure all of those other services (cable phone etc) have surge protection and that it shares the same ground electrode system as the service. The better your grounding electrode is, the better all of this works.
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In addition to whole house, and many suppressers around the house on various lines, I have a suppressor plugged into the outlet at furnace, I don't want the board in there to fry. It's a simple inline jack from the shack.
Greg
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I basically have a surge suppressor off my air conditioner breaker, which is 20 amps X 2 . Putting it on the breaker depends on the breaker and code. It protects the circuit, and affects all lines in the box, just as if it had it's own dedicated breaker. Surge supressor was about $40.-$50.
Greg
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