I don't see how they could be identical. An X10 single dimmer switch is different than the main module in a 3-way "pair" even if by nothing more than the number of wires. Maybe the dimming portion of the electronics is the same in both types of switches, that I don't know.
When the remote switch of the 3-way pair is used to dim the fixture, does it do the dimming itself or does it tell the main module to dim the light? If it talks to the main module, then I would guess that the electronics would have to be different than in the single dimmer.
I don' know if this is the model number of the 3-way I have (not home now) but this is "physically" what I have - a large main module and a smaller remote switch.
The X10 switches were already installed with the previous non-motion sensor fixtures. They were installed mainly for the dimming function. At the time, I was playing around with X10 and those were a couple of the first things I tried. When I "upgraded" to the motion sensors I wanted to retain the dimming feature so I simply left the switches in place.
FWIW others have suggested using a "lower wattage bulb". The bulbs that I use in this fixture are a small tear shaped "crystal" bulb which scatters the light in a cool pattern. They look great in these fixtures and I like the way the light shines from them.
Unfortunately the bulbs only come in one wattage which is why I like the dimming feature. However, for the sake of the fixture, I may need to forgo that option or those bulbs.
Considering the timeline of the installations, it wasn't meant to be gimmicky, it was just a way to retain the dimming feature that I enjoyed with the previous fixtures.
No, I didn't say that. I said IDK what kind of X10 3-way switch you have, but if it doesn't have a neutral connection, which I suspect it doesn't, then it requires a load to be able to power it's own electronics to operate.
I guess if you're satisfied with replacing the outdoor fixture every
18 months to 5 years, that meets your definition of working, than your good to go. So, what's the problem then? And I would not be surprised that other fixtures would not work at all. I would never expect a fixture that has a motion sensor to be able to work with a dimmer, where it gets less than normal voltage, unless the specs specifically said it would work.
Early 3-ways were, indeed, different. Later ones were all 3-way. If you didn't need the 3-way, you just didn't buy the companion switch and put a wire nut on the unused wire. They made these things for decades (starting in 78 I think), so we have no way of knowing exactly what you have.
I recall. Having connectivity problems (and most stock X-10 installations have them) using motion sensors is really close to impossible. Much more convenient to have the motion sensor built into the fixture in that case.
I've had to install an XTB amplifier and phase coupler as well as a much more powerful RF receiver from WGL. I also have several X-10 meters to troubleshoot problems and "approve" new equipment. Even so, there are still some problems that defy diagnosis (the X-10 motion sensor in the bathroom turns off the light after 16 minutes - and occasionally the kitchen lights that have the same house code but a different unit code. It's repeater related and has been a real bitch to diagnose or work around. It's in the "lived with for now" mode but I suspect the SAF on that bug is getting lower and lower with each inadvertent light turn off event. The workaround may be to switch the bathroom light and sensor to a different housecode but that would create as many problems as it solves.
The brand new automation gear seems to work better but is much more expensive. I tried to get Amazon's Echo to interface with my X-10 system but it would require three new items all working together that cost over $200 and involve yearly licensing fees. I think eventually someone will build a single interface unit but I won't be the pioneer on this. I've got the arrow scars that prove BTDT.
Sorry I was unclear. I believe the circuitry is virtually identical. The thryistor dimmers don't do well with CFL's and LEDs because of the same problem. There are switched power supplies in those bulbs and often no path for trickle current. I'm surprised you can even turn them on. That was the problem I have on circuits with no neutrals. The motion sensor in the fixture is being fed with power when dimmed that doesn't look much like a normal 110vac sine wave.
After reading the reviews on the Lowe's site it seems your experience (units failing at one location but not another) is rather typical. Corrosion problems also seem to afflict these units as well. If one unit gets more thermal stress I can see that contributing to premature failure by causing condensation to form inside the unit's electronics pod. As I recall you're in the northern climes. What side of the house are the units located (SENW)?
The units are on the south-facing wall of the house. The prevailing winds are from the west. The fixture(s) that fail are on the SW corner, the one that has lasted 5 years is about 25' east, along the same wall. However, based on the location of the house on the lot, the fixtures never get the full force of the wind. There are lots of trees to the west that act as a buffer. You have to be a good 15' south of the house before you really feel the westerly wind. They are both under a 5' overhang, so they never get full sun or direct rain either.
I'll take a close look at the fixtures to see if there is a significant difference in the exterior corrosion. If the latest failed one is more corroded than the 5 YO one, that could be an environmental indicator since it is much younger than the good one.
In any case, I may just forgo the dimmers and replace the switches with regular ones. As I mentioned in an earlier post, I don't actually use the dimmers, they were basically "set and forget" when the fixtures were installed to get the light level where I like it. The motion sensor takes care of the rest.
I addressed the use of lower wattage bulbs in another post. I like the look and light of the cut-glass tear drop bulbs I'm using, but they are a little too bright at full power. I've not seen them in a lower wattage. It might be time to either live with brighter lights or to find a different style bulb that comes in a lower wattage.
The motion sensor in your fixture needs low DC power to operate in the same way X-10 modules do. I suspect the Lowe's fixture powers itself the same way. Only tungsten bulbs should work in this fixture to enable the MD to power up. That's because like X-10 modules if there's no separate neutral, to get AC current they "steal" it from the current flowing through the load.
And the load type. Put in an LED or CFL and I'm pretty sure the results will be wholly unacceptable.
Include the techie that says it voids the warranty and you're covered on all four sides. (-:
I suspect you "get away" with that because your dimming levels are not low enough for the motion sensor module to go off line. Can you still detect motion reliably at lower levels?
Know what? (-: Won't it be too dark if you remove them?
But seriously, you have my sympathy. I would have given up a substantial investment in X-10 in 2005 or so because things got so bad. But with the help of a number of AHR members I eventually figured out how to connect the XTB coupler/repeater (JVDE.US) to my circuit panel. I had tried everything short of that but learned that's what it takes to have reliable X-10. A bridge across the two phases and a way to amplify the signal from a max output of 5V to 25V.
It's admittedly way too daunting and expensive for casual users but if you were heavily invested in (and liked) X-10 there's no other way to operate. For a while I had only the Monterey analyzer, and that served to locate signal suckers and EMI in the X-10 range (120kHz). But as more and more devices with switched power supplies came on line, it became impossible to keep the unamplified signal strong enough (about 1V but modules can respond to 30mv in some cases).
I find it interesting that the same old home wiring that's been mostly unchanged for 100 years (conceptually) actually had changed enough to invalidate some of the assumptions made by the X-10 designers.
It was quite a miracle of its time and still is for me. I've got 5 housecodes almost completely in use and lots of others with 3 or more devices. I can reset the damn router from anywhere in the house.
A smart controller like the recently deceased HomeVision allowed for tremendous flexibility in operation. It also offered increased reliability when using two way modules that report status because it could interrogate a module to make sure it was actually switched on and heard the previous command. Very useful in critical situations. Real pros will note that the X-10 status report really only tells you if the two-way module was switched on, not if there's actually current flowing through the load.
It would be great to integrate it with the Amazon Echo or Google Home for voice commands but even though some have gotten it to work, it's quite klugy.
I bought my first X-10 devices 40 years ago and some of those old BSR modules have been in continuous operation since then.
You may be right about the dimming levels. As I've mentioned in other posts, the fixtures are "permanently" dimmed just enough so that the bulbs I like aren't glaring. They do not get adjusted up and down, so I've not experienced any issues with motion sensing - at least not until the fixture just quits altogether. :-(
I'll be removing the X10 switches, not the lights - but I think you knew that. ;-)
Thanks for that and, as before, thanks for sharing your experience and knowledge in a friendly manner.
The satellite switch, IIRC, is nothing more than a momentary push button switch that sends a signal to the main unit (but not dimming current) to control the main load. It's very narrow and shallow according to the photographs. It clearly doesn't contain enough room to put a heat-sinked thyristor into it. Couldn't find a schematic, though. They used to be out there.
They are all like that AFAIK. I seem to recall it's a momentary switch because someone in the nearly defunct CHA group was asked by SWMBO to find a "less chintzy" switch and a normal wall switch would not work.
I am guessing that the switched power supply in the fixture that powers the motion circuitry is like many others in that it has a wide range of input voltages. Perhaps instead of being in the 120 to 240 input range it's something like 40 to 160. The load is very small and may function at low or "chopped" voltage levels. At least it's working for DD. I have the same "no neutral" outside light problems. Solved one with a rewire and a non-dimming switch. Solved another by using tungsten bulbs and a separate motion detector.
It would be interesting to know at what point the motion sensor fails to detect motion. The lowered voltage is likely to impair sensitivity even before the "no go" level is reached.
I think DD should be thankful it's working as well as it is. From the reviews at Lowe's I suspect poor QC or design is the culprit for premature failures.
That's what I use to control my external motion sensor light that's running with LED spots. But I don't like being unable to dim it.
In my decades of doing this stuff, I've found dimming is REALLY important to a lot of people. They don't want to abandon it because of a technical glitch.
Agree. But these units seem to work for him and I still don't see a mechanism where undervolting a simple fanless circuit like this would harm it. It would just stop working when the input voltage fell low enough to stop generating sufficient operating voltage for the motion detector.
Only 37% of the reviewers felt it was a good piece of equipment citing numerous failures. DD's premature equipment demise is more likely to be found in the design of the units.
By flicking the light on and off remotely I can get it to come on from the bedroom if we hear a noise that didn't appear to trip the MD. Last time it happened a family of very fat racoons were plundering my neighbors trashcans and flopping the lids open rather noisily.
I can also get it to stay on all night by waiting six seconds between toggles, which I can also do with X-10. So, in short, it's not exotic, it's actually highly useful to have MD spots on X-10 control.
That's what I thought. My question was in response to Pat who asked if the dimmers I am using are identical for each fixture - the one that has lasted for 5 years and the ones that keep failing. My question was to clarify whether the main unit for a 3-way pair was the same (internally) as the single switch module. I assume he was looking at a difference in the switches as the root cause of the failures.
Maybe I'm not explaining that very well. Let me try it this way:
The main unit of the 3-way pair has an extra wire for the traveler, so we know that *physically* it is different than a non-3-way switch. My question concerns the insides of a 3-way vs. a "standard" switch module. Is the circuitry the same other than perhaps a tap to accept the traveler signal?
In other words, could be Pat be onto to something? Could the 3 way module be so different in it's design that it is causing the failures? If I replaced the 3-way with the same model number as the standard switch, and of course, eliminated the remote switch, might the failures stop?
In reality I read about a NJ set of shrinks put case details of some young man's (might have been a child) in their legal pleadings that ended up (of course) on line when they were unpaid for too long. The kicker: They did not use electronic billing and somehow because of that, HIPAA privacy rules didn't apply!
I don't see a lot of hope for changing social behavior that's existed since the dawn of man and perhaps even before in the social animals that preceded us. Meerkats, dogs, cats, horses, birds and lots more species have "bullying" problems. And it frequently has very bad consequences for all the affected groups.
There was a Nature doco about how when the male leader of a baboon troop got too agressive and bullied *everyone*, the three highest status females got together, ambushed him, beat the daylights out of him and escorted him outside of their territory.
I often wonder if bullying really did drive the Columbine shooters over the edge or some other factors were more contributive?
No, I believe it's the same basic circuit board for both with either added components or different pin outs. It would be in keeping with the X-10 way. Their RF wall switches came in many configurations but all share the same basic PC board.
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