DANGER: RADON

[Main Man]

See here

[tbasc]

George, I generally agree with you. However, I hear from some some researchers that is is often the case that there are connecting paths up through the house structure.

YFH might want to look at the Building Science Corporation web site.

TB

[Yeung Fun Ho]

Can anyone recommend any cheapo DIY ideas on how to exhaust heat from

> an attic in a house?

unlike some of the folks here, who are forgetting a very important point, let me remind you of something:

many places in the USA have high RADON levels (RADON, a colorless, odorless gas, is the 2nd leading cause of lung cancer, after smoking)

many of the solutions that are typically presented in this group involve exhausting attic heat via a fan, turbine, etc.

most of these are "negative pressure" solutions, i.e. they suck air out in order to exhaust the unwanted heat

this will cause RADON to be sucked IN to your home from the ground

I suggest the following two ideas which are at least as effective and will not introduce any RADON:

suggestions for hot attics:

1. a positive pressure solution (i.e. fan blows into attic and out a vent, rather than sucking air out and RADON in)

1. even better is a white roof, studies have shown that a white colored roof is 7 times as efficient for eliminating attic heat than any vent, fan, or turbine system

YFH

[Edwin Pawlowski]

Agree with that. Attic venting shold be independent of the house unless you are taling a whole house fan. OTOH, I'm not convinced radon is the threat some make it out to be.

Makes a lot of sense in hot climates, but in the winter, it is not a savings here.

[George E. Cawthon]

True, but many places have no problem with radon. Besides, the solution is generally simple and inexpensive. (Of course there are "fixers" who will insist that very expensive solutions are necessary). Before anyone gets excited, check with local health or other organizations for radon in the local soils.

Almost any attic ventilation solution requires air inlets and outlets. A fan that blows out requires air inlets, either openings in the end gables or openings in the soffits. As a result, very little negative pressure will be developed. In any case, negative pressure in the attic won't have any effect on Radon in the house unless the attic is tied to the rest of the house, the basement, or the crawlspace and that isn't the case in most houses (it may be the case with a whole house fan). For radon to be a problem, radon has to infiltrate the house from the soil. That may occur from a basement or crawl space, but not from an attic.

[TPutmann]

Radon - The biggest scam of the 20th century. They say "you can't see it, but it will kill you". The reason you cant see it, is because there is no such thing as radon, except in the minds of scammers that want your money to do alot of useless crap to your house at their gain. However, if you believe in radon, then you must also believe in the tooth fairy. Well, I personally know the tooth fairy, and if you send me $1000, I will send you her autographed photo, and if you include one of your gold capped teeth along with your $1000 check, she will also send you a silver dollar with a picture of a naked face on it.

[Edwin Pawlowski]

They state: What Are the Effects of Radon?

Miners exposed to high radon levels have been found to run an increased risk of lung cancer. Radon in the home also presents a risk, but generally at a lower level.

Thus my earlier comment. I think it may be overblown in the home.

[Gideon]

The important point is that radon is a danger to you or your pets only if you breath it. If you are breathing it, then your risk level is dependent upon the radon level in the air that you are breathing and the length of time that you are exposed.

Pets, especially cats, are often at the greatest risk since in some homes they spend a lot of time at ground level in the basement. A person who spends much of the day in a basement home office and a lot of free time watching his large screen basement TV may also be at relatively great risk.

Radon is 9 times heavier than air and it tends to stay low in the basement. Basement venting can greatly reduce radon levels. Negative pressures in the house greatly increase radon infiltration into the basement and subsequent radon movement up to the living areas. Exhaust fans are obvious culprits. Air movement such as that created by the furnace blower fan also increases the spread of radon through the house. Cracks in basement foundations, cracks in basement floors and openings such as sump pump pits all increase infiltration.

Better than guessing, buy an inexpensive radon test kit, use it correctly in your basement, and then send it to the lab. If the test results indicate high radon levels, then buy a couple more test kits and test your living areas. I have a friend whose basement tested at 37 microcuries - a level considered rather dangerous. But the upper levels of the house have acceptable levels of radon and the family is relatively unconcerned since the basement is just a place to house the furnace, water heater, washer, dryer and a lot of junk.

They feel secure with just simple steps such as cracking open a window when an exhaust fan is running, opening basement windows on occasion for some basement cross ventilation, opening living area windows briefly once in a while during the winter, etc.

Like cigarette smoking, radon can be very dangerous and can present a greatly increased RISK of cancer. Like second-hand smoke, radon dangers can be greatly exaggerated.

Gideon

[George E. Cawthon]

True, with balloon framing used in old houses. I would worry more about fires than Radon with such construction.

Not true with modern house construction.

[Vic Dura]

These studies were done in the 1950s and 1960s. Most (if not all) of the miners where also heavy smokers. So many were smokers, that they couldn't get a significant sample if they excluded smokers, so they had to keep them in the sample. They compared the lung cancer rate of the miners/smokers to the lung cancer rate of smokers-only. (They did not consider the amount of smoking. I've never seen stats, but my observations of miners as a group is that they are far heavier smokers than the populaton at large.) The difference was very small, and many researchers judged it to be statistically insignificant and the studies non-conclusive.

That was judged to be an unacceptable and imprudent conclusion by Health Physics community at the time, so a second committee was chosen to review the results and *they* concluded that the differences while indeed small, "might" be significant. That became the official party line in the Health Physics community whose job and livelihood was managing radiation risk. It just wouldn't do to find some natural background radiation levels to be "safe" and without risk.

That has been the party line ever since but was pretty much ignored and forgotten since the conclusions were so contrary human experience, observation and common sense. Then in the 1990s when our culture was running out of hysteria-of-the-month scares (global warming, nuclear winter, no more water, etc.) this old bogeyman was resurrected.

It's perfect: you can't see it, can't feel it, can't smell it, can't sense it, and can't find a single person that was effected by it. You can only say that of 100,000 people exposed to it, *according to our models and predictions* x-people surely must have been effected. What the HP community does not say is that the predictive models were designed *with the assumption* that there was an effect.

Well, a close relative of mine owns a radon testing service, so I hope that in the future they require radon testing & mitigation as a requirement of all home sales. If you can't get people to use common sense, you might as well accommodate and profit from their fears :-)

[Mike Dobony]

Holes for water vent, gas furnace and water heater chimneys go from basement to roof.

[Mike Dobony]

2nd biggest scam. #1 scan? FREON!!!!!! There has never been a SCIENTIFIC study tying freon to ozone depletion. There has never been any scientific study that conclusively shows ANY ozone depletion. The newspapers have CLAIMED a connection, but never gave any scientific studies which proved or even indicated it. What they showed was guesses that it MIGHT deplete the ozone.

[Vicki Szaszvari]

[Vicki Szaszvari]

I must believe in the Tooth Fairy because a cousin and his wife both died of lung cancer -- judged to be due to radon in their home. Rural North Dakota farmers who didn't smoke.

[Vicki Szaszvari]

Wrong, Freon breath. You need to read something published in the past decade, or get out of the house more often. You probably still believe the whole thing was fabricated by DuPont because of their R-12 patent (which, incidentally, ran out more than 50 years ago.)

[Oscar_Lives]

The idea of a Tooth Fairy gives me the willies. I couldn't handle the thought of a big faggy tooth coming in my room at night while I was asleep...

[meirman]

In alt.hvac on Sat, 16 Jul 2005 11:14:42 -0500 "Mike Dobony" posted:

Yeah, in another thread I mentioned my forced air heating duct which goes up my stack to the second. The oil furnace chimney is either in the stack too or right next to it.

At the level of the first-floor ceiling or second floor floor, there is a piece of plywood covering the stack, with holes for whatever goes up there. I don't recall how well fitted the holes were to the duct etc. Do all houses have the stack closed like this?

When I wanted to run another electric line, and phone lines and burglar alarm lines, even with my 6 foot drill bit and a 12 inch extension, it was hard to drill the hole.

Still, I don't think attic ventilation draws from the basement when their are easier places to draw from, and even if there is radon in the area, that doesn't mean it gets into the basement. There has to be a crack in the foundation and in the right place.

Meirman

-- If emailing, please let me know whether or not you are posting the same letter. Change domain to erols.com, if necessary.

[meirman]

In alt.hvac on Sat, 16 Jul 2005 01:38:06 -0500 [e-mail] posted:

There is no such thing as neon either. In those things they call neon lights, they use barbecue sauce.

And no such thing as helium. They just fill those balloons with "light air".

Check out the periodic table of elements, and the inert gases.

Meirman

-- If emailing, please let me know whether or not you are posting the same letter. Change domain to erols.com, if necessary.

[Mark]

Yes it is IMPORTANT to make sur there are no open RETURN ducts in your basement. These will casue negative pressure in the basment that can pull radon in and distribute it in your home. Close off all RETURN ducts in the basment and open one output duct in the basment to pressurize the basmement a little. With the furnace blower running, stand at the door to the basement with the door open a crack, if you feel air being pulled into the basement from the upstairs, you have an open return duct and need to close it.

Mark

[Curly Sue]

Where have you been? They didn't stop studying radon in the 60s. If studies are non-conclusive, it means they (or the analyses) are "non-conclusive," not that it's the end of the story. "Statistically insignificant" can have as much to do with the design of a study as with biological reality.

Do a simple literature search and take note of studies as recent as this year; you're going to be surprized that the conclusions have changed. The issue is not resolved by any means, particularly with dosage, length of exposure (eg. lifetime risk of exposed children vs. risk of adults exposed later in life), and degree of risk. But the fact that it's a difficult issue to study doesn't mean that there is no danger.

Sue(tm) Lead me not into temptation... I can find it myself!