Converting Fireplace to Natural Gas - Gas Line Question!!!

I have a question about the gas lines in my home. I am getting new lines installed to run a gas fireplace and a natural gas BBQ.
I have a 2" pipe coming in the house, and there are two 1" branches coming off of it (one to feed the furnace - the other to feed the hot water heater). The 2" pipe is capped off on the end.
I have had 2 quotes for the conversion and one guy says he must create a new 1" pipe coming off the 2" pipe - and then he will split it to run each appliance (BBQ and fireplace). The other guy says he can run a pipe directly from one of the 1" pipes (from the furance he said) and still split it for the two appliances.
I am concerned about this contradiction. Both say that they will be installing to "code", which I am sure they will be, but what I am concerned about is will my BBQ, Fireplace AND furnace all have enough gas flow/juice - whatever you want to call it - to run off of a shared 1" line. How do you know?
Of course the guy that wants to run all three appliances off the 1" line has a cheaper quote, so I want to go with him, but I am a little afraid that he is cutting corners and I won't get the same efficiency, heat, output, etc. from my applicances after this is done.
Can someone provide insight into this dilemma? Is there some way I can tell myself if what the installer is doing is the most effective/efficient decision, and not just the quick and easy patch job to get the contract?
Thanks! Paula
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Easy.
Who has done the correct gas line diametric to insure that the proper amount of fuel gas will be in the pipes, under the correct pressure, so as not to starve any one appliance if the condition exists for whatever reason that all the applicances on the supply line will not be starved?
Its in the code book. Anyone can claim to install to code, and most homeowners dont have a clue what the code is. Fuel gas is covered under the International Fuel Gas Code, and anyone that wants to do the job, should have a diametric on hand, to explain why he is going to do what is is going to do.
This takes into account the type of pipe, the type of fuel gas, the total BTUs on the longest run, the total effective length of the lines, and the total BTUs of fuel that are available in the main line, based upon the pressure of the secondary, or main, as the case might be, regulation of the line. No diametric, no job. Real simple. 1 inch line, at 2 PSI can handle quite a bit, but that same 1 inch line, at say...half an inch of water column, with a total effective length of say...100 feet, (might only be a 20 foot run, but could have a total effective length of over 100 feet) in copper ( that would be wrong to use anyway) would not carry half as many BTUs to be used...and would be pointless. Again...No diametric, no job.
This is something we see all the time, and most times when we show the homeowner the diametric, we also show them in the Code book how the figures were gained. If they cant show that that, then...let whoever you want do it...its only your comfort, and ability to use what you paid for at stake.
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'I have a question about the gas lines in my home. I am getting new lines installed to run a gas fireplace and a natural gas BBQ. I have a 2" pipe coming in the house, and there are two 1" branches coming off of it (one to feed the furnace - the other to feed the hot water heater). The 2" pipe is capped off on the end. I have had 2 quotes for the conversion and one guy says he must create a new 1" pipe coming off the 2" pipe - and then he will split it to run each appliance (BBQ and fireplace). The other guy says he can run a pipe directly from one of the 1" pipes (from the furance he said) and still split it for the two appliances. I am concerned about this contradiction. Both say that they will be installing to "code", which I am sure they will be, but what I am concerned about is will my BBQ, Fireplace AND furnace all have enough gas flow/juice - whatever you want to call it - to run off of a shared 1" line. How do you know? Of course the guy that wants to run all three appliances off the 1" line has a cheaper quote, so I want to go with him, but I am a little afraid that he is cutting corners and I won't get the same efficiency, heat, output, etc. from my applicances after this is done. Can someone provide insight into this dilemma? Is there some way I can tell myself if what the installer is doing is the most effective/efficient decision, and not just the quick and easy patch job to get the contract? Thanks! Paula'
ME: Paula, Here is some criteria to consider using a 1" gas line:
10' length will handle 520,000 btus input of appliances,etc.. 20' will handle 350,000 btus 30' will handle 285,000 btus 40' will handle 245,000 btus 50' will handle 215,000 btus
What you want to do is, figure out the btus of all 3 gas appliances (the gas fireplace, furnace and barbie)..along with the approx. run of pipe needed, then compare to the above values i have given you above. I can tell you that the approx. btu input of your gas firelogs will be in the vicinity of : 20,000 btus input and the barbie in the vicinity of 30,000 btus input. Dont know how big your furnace is, but, take off the front cover and youll find the manufacturers label/plate which has those specs listed on it. Then, add up the 3 sums for a total btu input. Then, find out approx how far the installer has to run the pipe to each location .
Im willing to bet that a 1" will be more than enough unless the piping runs are very long and/or you have a huge furnace/huge house.
Hope that gives you something to go on.
Dave , Owner Daves Heating and Cooling Inc.
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Dave , is that copper, steel or the plastic, same I.D. ? And what about Elbow reduction and line pressure - volume. What about running outside, - code. Dont forget the permits today Dave SM
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'is that copper, steel or the plastic, same I.D. ? And what about Elbow reduction and line pressure - volume. What about running outside, - code. Dont forget the permits today Dave SM'
ME: As far as the pipe carrying capacity is concerned..it doesnt matter if its copper, steel. iron, plastic, or soda straw . The capacities i listed for her on a 1" pipe are based on a pressure drop of .3 inch wc and at .6 sp.gr. of gas. Make the pipe reduction right at each appliance and the reduction to 1/2" has little bearing on the matter. As far as codes, etc...i didnt even get into them, and yes, they should be followed. I simply gave her capacities for a 1" pipe..and unless she has a 300,000 btu input furnace/boiler and a very long run of piping....a 1" pipe will be just fine and work well.
Dave
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And as you know dave in your area, Skokie Illinois . Boilers of 300000 btu + are common, as is my 117000 btu Bosch Tankless water heater as are highend BBQs with ovens and side burners that can do 100000 btu +++ As are 180000 Takagi Tankless. Sure 1 " eh My boiler is more than that. My little Bosch 117000 has 1" because its 50 ft of line.
Now IDs ?
We dont know what her new units will consume, run length, and existing set up and use, so we cant figure size.
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'And as you know dave in your area, Skokie Illinois .'
ME: You have the wrong Daves Heating and Cooling Inc ; im not the guy in Skokie, Illinois. Dont be presumptuous.
'Boilers of 300000 btu + are common, as is my 117000 btu Bosch Tankless water heater as are highend BBQs with ovens and side burners that can do 100000 btu +++ As are 180000 Takagi Tankless. Sure 1 " eh My boiler is more than that. My little Bosch 117000 has 1" because its 50 ft of line.'
ME: Didnt i tell her to add up her btu inputs on the appliances/furnace which the new gas branch line would handle ??? YES, i most certainly did. Then she can compare it to the capacities i gave her for a 1" pipe.
Quit being jerkish about this whole thing ; ive been in loads of big homes and have never seen a 2" incoming main into someones house. Its almost ALWAYS a 1" and very very rarely it is a 1.5 ".
Now...go and flip some burgers on that huge Barbie that you have ! ANd have a non alchoholic beer on me .
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HVAC IsFun spilled my beer when they jumped on the table and proclaimed in

I was under the impression that you are not supposed to use copper for a gas line.
NOI
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On Sat, 29 May 2004 16:33:09 -0400, Thund3rstruck_n0i

I have copper gas supply line for water heater, dryer and fireplace.
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As
Copper, is, under some circumstances acceptable..the IGC states that you must know the grains of supher per cubic foot and if it exceeds a particular amount, it can NOT be used. Stainless Steel pipe is now cheaper to run than copper, has leak proof fittings when installed correctly, and will not brittle up over time. I know coppers been used for years, but its NOT always legal, and even if it is, its far from the best thing to use.
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You dont of course want the funace to not run when everything else is on With multiple new lines and alotta hacks out there you would be well off to pull a permit . Permits get you a Free inspection by a pro before you pay, and help you avoid future issues, saftey and insurance issues, im sure you understand. For saftey get a permit and dont pay until After it is inspected. Im also betting neither guy said you needed a permit, well you do . But its for your protection. To know if 1" will work i beleive a manometer is needed to measure gas flow [ a guess ]
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Don't know where you are situated, but in a normal North American domestic domestic natural gas supply, 2 inch is way overkill, it would feed a commercial building or a large restaurant. Most homes will only have a 1" gas supply to feed all appliances, some use a 3/4" service but that is very limiting. Are you quoting the proper nominal pipe size? A 1" diameter pipe has an outside diameter of about 1 1/4".
With such discrepancies, I would consult with the gas company or someone who has the facts.

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Be sure you pick out your fireplace and grill first, a pro grill with extra burners + oven could take 100000 btu. A webber with extra burner may take 40000? A fireplace depending on size and make well over 30000, and water heater, stove, dryer, furnace, have to be figured in.
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snipped-for-privacy@shaw.ca (Paula) wrote in message

I am a licensed gasfitter in Canada,been in the trade for 30 years, there will be no problem splitting off from a 1" line to feed both the fireplace and the bbq outlet. If we were to do it we would just use a 1/2" copper line to each appliance and that would be more than enough gas to supply the appliances. A 2" line in a house is huge by today's standards. The only way that you would have a problem is if your gasline is an extremly long run from the gas meter. In a house it is generally no more than 30 to 40 feet from the meter to the furnace. I'm sure a 2" gasline would supply enough gas even if the distance was more like 150'. So go with the guy who is cheaper. Just make sure he puts shutoffs on for each appliance.
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'I am a licensed gasfitter in Canada,been in the trade for 30 years, there will be no problem splitting off from a 1" line to feed both the fireplace and the bbq outlet. If we were to do it we would just use a 1/2" copper line to each appliance and that would be more than enough gas to supply the appliances. A 2" line in a house is huge by today's standards. The only way that you would have a problem is if your gasline is an extremly long run from the gas meter. In a house it is generally no more than 30 to 40 feet from the meter to the furnace. I'm sure a 2" gasline would supply enough gas even if the distance was more like 150'. So go with the guy who is cheaper. Just make sure he puts shutoffs on for each appliance. '
ME: Thats exactly what i said ; a 1" gas line is plenty big enough. Ive never seen a 2" residential gas main in northern illinois either.
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Group: alt.discuss.clubs.public.christian.gays Subject: im looking for a friend Date: Mon, Jan 26, 2004, 6:13pm (PST+2) Organization: WebTV Subscriber
im a single male no children but did lose one to God many years ago im a christian but have recently found myself *fighting* with *homesexual* *demons* in my mind i am around *children* often and *worry* *about* *my* *feelings* *for* *them* too id like someone other than my minister to discuss this situation wioth dave>>>
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snipped-for-privacy@shaw.ca (Paula) wrote in message

First of all, a 2" gas line? Check again. Second of all, call your local building inspector, He will not only tell you what is code, but answer your questions for your area free of charge. (you already are paying him).
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You may be able to figure who is best from this web page
http://www.metrokc.gov/health/plumbing/gaspiping.htm
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