Constitutionality of light bulb ban questioned - Environmental Protection Agency must be called for a broken bulb

[StickThatInYourPipeAndSmokeIt]

They were CAUSED by GREED!

[Paul M. Eldridge]

Hi Don,

That's my overall impression too. To get into the '90s, the CCTs are all in the range of 5,000 to 7,000K, and while that may be perfectly acceptable for tropical climates, it's way too cold for residential use here in Canada. And you're right about the marketing hype; the folks who aggressively promote another emerging lighting technology must have all cut their teeth selling "full spectrum" fluorescents because they appear to be cut from the same cloth.

A CFL with a CRI of 90 to 95 and a CCT of 3,000 to 3,500K would be the ideal and I wouldn't mind paying a reasonable premium for the better colour rendering.

Cheers, Paul

[Paul M. Eldridge]

Hi James,

One more to add to the linear list: the Philips TL930 and TL950 have a CCT of 3,000 and 5,000K respectively and a CRI of 95 and 98. I haven't any personal experience with either lamp, but from what I've read they're a good choice for colour critical applications.

See:

The downside is the one-third loss of light output, but that's pretty much a given when you reach this level of performance.

Cheers, Paul

[ransley]

f you post to =A0|

ASAP. =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0|

I just saw a frige on display with leds everywhere, the problem was the color rendition made everything an ugly blue grey, but Leds will get better as cfls have.

[Ken]

I like my old Philips TLD36W/92 here in Sweden. It still work perfect in my kitchen since 1990.

Specifications: 2700K, CRI 95, 63 lm/W

[Ken]

I like my old Philips TLD36W/92 here in Sweden. It still work perfect in my kitchen since 1990.

Specifications: 2700K, CRI 95, 63 lm/W

[krw]

Perhaps true, but irrelevant.

I agree, but also irrelevant.

Agreed, but also irrelevant. The *point* is that bailing out those who made bad bets allows them another chance to do so and telegraphs a terrible message to everyone else. *THAT* is distorting the market.

Also true, but irrelevant.

[krw]

...by those feeding off the national teat in Washington.

[krw]

...and therefor engine efficiency.

Concentrating on getting the old smokers off the road will do far more good.

I've seen this in my own car. I get about 10% lower mileage with an alcohol mix than gasoline. ...enough to avoid the brands that use alcohol, even if the others do cost 10% more (they usually don't).

Which, as you pointed out, does nothing for a vehicle with a modern fuel system except reduce mileage and pollute groundwater with a nice carcinogen.

Some areas much more prevalent than others. AIUI, it's unavoidable in some areas.

Lose the subsidies and restrictions (including imported ethanol) altogether. Let the market decide.

...and "I've heard" that the only source worth using is cane. Ethanol is the best answer for the current fleet of cars.

[Paul M. Eldridge]

Hi Ken,

Very nice specs. The only thing I know that would come close to matching that in CCT (and it may now be a discontinued product), is something Sylvania sold called "The Incandescent Fluorescent". It was a 40-watt T12 lamp with a CCT of 2,750K and a CRI of 89 or 90, if I recall correctly. In its day, the quality of the light it provided was a huge improvement over a standard warm white tube (52 CRI) and warm white deluxe (mid to upper 70s) -- so good, in fact, many photographers could use tungsten rated film with this lamp and get outstanding results. I liked this lamp a lot, but it only provided

1,500 lumens using standard control gear (~ 34 lumens per watt).

Bäst hänsynen ! Paul

[Dan Lanciani]

In article , [e-mail] (James Sweet) writes: | | | > In the past few years I've noticed that the commodity F40 and F96 tubes | > at the home centers are once again 40W and 75W respectively, so I assume | > they all now qualify for the good color rendering (or other) exemption | > from the requirements. (Or are they lying about the wattage?) | > | > Dan Lanciani | > ddl@danlan.*com | | | Trichromatic phosphor blends are much more common these days and a lot | cheaper than they used to be, so you can easily get 40W high CRI lamps.

And 75W F96 tubes, though they cost a little more than the dirt cheap CW versions did. I guess this is great if you like a high color rendering index, but I'm still not clear on how it ultimately helped with energy conservation or efficiency. Now if they had gone on to produce 34W F40 and 60W F96 tubes that put out as much light as the older 40W and 75W versions I could see the justification for the higer costs, ballast replacements, and such in the meantime. But as it is, aren't we pretty much back where we started (from an energy usage point of view)?

Dan Lanciani ddl@danlan.*com

[Jeff Strickland]

First point is that incandescent bulbs are not efficient, therefore they have not been used efficiently for more than 100 years. They HAVE been used effectively, but not efficiently. That's the point of CFLs, they provide more light using less power -- which is the very definition of efficiency.

As for CFLs being made in China, so what? New sources of American Energy are nukes (blocked by environmentalists) wind energy (blocked by environmentalists) solar energy (blocked by environmentalists) and coal-based energy (blocked by environmentalists).

America needs 30 new power plants to up the capacity and replace aging plants. Europe has been using nuke energy for a long time, and they have no problems with it. But enviromentalists in this country object to it. America has a few windmill farms, but environmentalists object to them because birds fly into the vanes, and the NIMBYs object to the view. Solar energy is being tried in a few places, but the environmentalists object to the space they demand and the resulting encroachment on habitat. And, we have lots of coal fired power plants, but environmentalists object to the coal mines and the soot that is produced.

The American Southwest looks like it will be building new homes within the next decade that are Zero Net users of electricity. These homes will be built with solar collectors on the roof that will be able to generate upwards of 10kW, and this will be more than the home needs for most of the year. Each home will actually generate power that goes to the grid and the home will get credit on the electricity bill. The credit will then be drawn against on days when the air conditioner is used, resulting in an overall zero pull from the grid for most homeowners. I'm sure the environmentalists will figure out a complaint to lodge ...

[Paul M. Eldridge]

Hi Dan,

Twenty or thirty years ago, a conventional two-tube F96T12 fixture would draw about 180-watts. Today, with 60-watt lamps and energy saving magnetic ballasts, that number falls closer to 135 or

140-watts, so there's been at least some improvement.

In terms of operating efficacy, a 75-watt Sylvania F96T12/D41/ECO (4,100K/70 CRI) is rated at 6,420 initial lumens and powered by a standard magnetic-core ballast (0.88 BF), we obtain about 63 lumens from each watt. A 60-watt Sylvania F96T12/D41/SS/ECO (4,100K/70 CRI) at 5,600 initial lumens and driven by a newer energy saving magnetic ballast would bump that up to perhaps 71 or 72 lumens per watt.

Things do improve considerably once you move to T8. A 59-watt Sylvania F096/841/XP/ECO (4,100K/85 CRI) has a nominal rating of 6,100 lumens and a two tube fixture with a 0.88 BF electronic ballast draws approximately 110-watts -- that puts us in the range of 97 or 98 lumens per watt.

In addition to better colour rendering and higher system efficacy, there's also a 50 per cent improvement in lamp life (18,000 hrs. versus 12,000 at 3 hrs per start), plus no flicker or ballast noise; lumen maintenance is also notably better at 93 to 95 per cent versus

80 to 85 per cent. As an added bonus, T8s typically offer better cold weather performance (e.g., Sylvania's F96T8 lamps have a 0F starting temperature when used with Quictronic ballasts).

Cheers, Paul

[dpb]

RFI-EMI-GUY wrote: ...

That makes no sense. Ethanol has about 80% the energy of gasoline on a per unit volume basis. Hence a gallon of E10 blend has roughly

0.9*100 + 0.1*80 --> 98% of the energy content of a gallon of gasoline.

Hence, for mileage to drop by more than a few per cent is unreasonable--you're quoting numbers as if the entire fuel were ethanol but as if it were only 10%.

If the vehicle actually is requiring much more than that extra 2% on E10, something's wrong w/ the vehicle; perhaps in the emission control system sensors.

--

[HeyBub]

Right. Greed is good.

A great worthy once said "If not for greed, no man would marry, build a house, or father a child."

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

Yes it does not seem to make a lot of sense on a lot of levels.

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

The oxygen sensor in the fuel injection loop is probably seeing to much oxygen and is compensating by richening the fuel air mixture.

I have gas receipts going back at least two years to present so the numbers are real. The drop in economy happened when the new fuel was introduced. I have an OBD II reader plugged into the vehicle at all times, no error codes. The air cleaner is new, the vehicle well maintained. There could be other issues like water in the fuel supply from the dealer tanks.

[phil-news-nospam]

In alt.engineering.electrical krw wrote: | In article , [e-mail] | says... |> In alt.engineering.electrical krw wrote: |> | In article , phil-news- |> | [e-mail] says... |> |> In alt.engineering.electrical HeyBub wrote: |> |> | [e-mail] wrote: |> |> |>

|> |> |> I do like the idea of taxing the incandescent bulbs. But I also like |> |> |> the idea of taxing cheap imports. |> |> |>

|> |> | |> |> | Then there are those who are opposed to using tax laws to promote public |> |> | policy. Taxes distort the marketplace. |> |> |> |> And I am not one of those. The marketplace needs to be distorted in a few |> |> places. The market for subprime mortgage origination comes to mind as my |> |> first place, if you need an example. |> | |> | The market for subprime mortgages is being distorted by a bailout |> | (and FannieMay). Without a bailout there would be no distortion. |> | Let 'em sink. |> |> Totally unregulated markets are known to have ups and downs that can sometimes |> get way out of whack. The bailout is to avoid a sinking that would just make |> it go even further out of whack, or take other markets down with it. | | Perhaps true, but irrelevant. | |> The regulation I would focus on is to have avoided the whole mess in the first |> place, and provide for a stable growth. The MINIMUM regulation to achieve that |> would be my goal. | | I agree, but also irrelevant. | |> The stupid businesses _should_ sink. But when it's a case of the sinking ship |> taking other things down with it, that needs to be avoided. | | Agreed, but also irrelevant. The *point* is that bailing out those | who made bad bets allows them another chance to do so and telegraphs | a terrible message to everyone else. *THAT* is distorting the | market.

NOT bailing them out just exacerbates the market decline. The correct thing to have done would be to separate the bad decision makers from any benefits of the bailout. Unfortunately, laws are not in place to do that effectively.

There needs to be certain regulations on this. Where bad decisions can only affect ones own profits, the government really has no need to be involved. But where bad decisions can affect the whole economy, the government has a genuine interest to be involved.

Generally, bankruptcy proceedings can separate a loser from his losses. Those who own a losing business get to lose their business that way. That may well be an adequate remedy for situations like this. But if more is needed, maybe jail time for the bad actors?

I did suspect this housing mess needs to have some people put in jail. But the laws may not have made it sufficiently clear to do it this time around. To the extent that is so, the laws need to change.

|> |> | As for taxing imports, this silliness was settled in the 18th Century in |> |> | Adam Smith's "The Wealth of Nations." Smith proved that everybody benefits |> |> | when nations do what they do best and freely trade with other nations who |> |> | also do what they do best. |> |> |> |> As long as all nations are on a level playing field, this would be so. But |> |> it is a fact that most nations outside the USA have governments playing a |> |> hand in the economies. |> | |> | It's impossible for a government to *not* have a hand in economics |> | and silly to think they should (not). |> |> How the governments in places like China are managing their economy compared |> to the USA is a big contrast. It puts the USA in a weak position. | | Also true, but irrelevant.

You sure to consider a lot of things to be irrelevant.

[phil-news-nospam]

In alt.engineering.electrical HeyBub wrote: | StickThatInYourPipeAndSmokeIt wrote: |> On Sun, 22 Jun 2008 05:48:26 -0500, "HeyBub" |> wrote: |>

|>>

|>> The dirty little secret behind sub-prime morgtages is that they were |>> CAUSED by government regulation. |>

|>

|> They were CAUSED by GREED! | | Right. Greed is good.

Greed is good only to the extent it motivates people to act within the law. The law is good when it ensures that greed has no negative impact on the society as a whole.

| A great worthy once said "If not for greed, no man would marry, build a | house, or father a child."

Lots of non-greedy people accomplish these things.

[phil-news-nospam]

In alt.engineering.electrical HeyBub wrote: | [e-mail] wrote: |> In alt.engineering.electrical HeyBub wrote: |>> [e-mail] wrote: |>>>

|>>> I do like the idea of taxing the incandescent bulbs. But I also |>>> like the idea of taxing cheap imports. |>>>

|>>

|>> Then there are those who are opposed to using tax laws to promote |>> public policy. Taxes distort the marketplace. |>

|> And I am not one of those. The marketplace needs to be distorted in |> a few places. The market for subprime mortgage origination comes to |> mind as my first place, if you need an example. | | The dirty little secret behind sub-prime morgtages is that they were CAUSED | by government regulation. The government required a significant percentage | of banking and morgtage business to take place in "deprived" or | "under-served" areas. Absence of a branch bank, for example, on a street | where the only other retail services were hookers and dope-dealers was | evidence sufficient of discrimination!

There's a whole lot more than that involved. Some mortgage companies were not affected by this beyond the extent to which the whole economy was. Lots of falsified origination took place. Then these instruments were sold improperly to organizations that didn't properly check them out.

| True, and we can take advantage of their foolishness. If Bangladesh wants to | subsidize the manufacture of sneakers by 6-year olds such that we end up | with really swell tennis shoes for two bucks, then I'm all for it.

That's the un-level playing field that can decimate the industries of other countries.