Constitutionality of light bulb ban questioned - Environmental Protection Agency must be called for a broken bulb

Page 5 of 10  
Well in all fairness...

Yes, plenty of enclosed CFLs work outside in the winter. If you live in an area of extreme cold, there's always HID. A 39W metal halide lamp produces much more light than a 150W incandescent, and lasts 6-10 times as long. I use exclusively CFLs in all my outdoor fixtures, it only gets down to about 15F at the lowest here, so the plain exposed spiral type work fine. Since these are on from dusk till dawn, the savings are substantial and I get 2+ years out of a bulb. Even the vilified mercury vapor lamp so common in yard lights and street lighting of the past is more than twice as efficient as incandescent.

Yes, I do, but what's wrong with LEDs? They're perfect for flashlights. You can pick up a 3W white LED Maglight for $22 at Home Depot, they've really come down in price, work better, and the batteries last longer. I do have a fluorescent flashlight, it uses a small cold cathode tube, as well as I have a camping lantern with a conventional 9W CFL tube in it powered by 4 D batteries.

Not very many anymore. LEDs and HID are making rapid headway into automotive applications as prices drop and technology improves. I'd bet that within a decade there will be virtually no incandescent lamps anywhere in new cars. No more taking out a zillion screws and clips to dig into the dash and replace lamps, no more burned out taillights, or melted lenses from someone installing the wrong bulbs. There's no delay as the lamp filaments heat either, so response of the brake lights is quicker, not by much, but at 70 mph every millisecond is valuable.
Add pictures here
βœ–
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
| Yes, plenty of enclosed CFLs work outside in the winter. If you live in | an area of extreme cold, there's always HID. A 39W metal halide lamp | produces much more light than a 150W incandescent, and lasts 6-10 times | as long. I use exclusively CFLs in all my outdoor fixtures, it only gets | down to about 15F at the lowest here, so the plain exposed spiral type | work fine. Since these are on from dusk till dawn, the savings are | substantial and I get 2+ years out of a bulb. Even the vilified mercury | vapor lamp so common in yard lights and street lighting of the past is | more than twice as efficient as incandescent.
But none of them produce the quality of light that incandescent does, which is needed is _some_ places.
--
|WARNING: Due to extreme spam, googlegroups.com is blocked. Due to ignorance |
| by the abuse department, bellsouth.net is blocked. If you post to |
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
βœ–
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Jun 20, 10:07 pm, snipped-for-privacy@ipal.net wrote:

Go read a review a Popular Mechanics Mag, its old but its there, For facial color the HD bulb beat Incandesant. New warm white cfls are advancing fast.
Add pictures here
βœ–
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
| On Jun 20, 10:07?pm, snipped-for-privacy@ipal.net wrote:
|> |> | Yes, plenty of enclosed CFLs work outside in the winter. If you live in |> | an area of extreme cold, there's always HID. A 39W metal halide lamp |> | produces much more light than a 150W incandescent, and lasts 6-10 times |> | as long. I use exclusively CFLs in all my outdoor fixtures, it only gets |> | down to about 15F at the lowest here, so the plain exposed spiral type |> | work fine. Since these are on from dusk till dawn, the savings are |> | substantial and I get 2+ years out of a bulb. Even the vilified mercury |> | vapor lamp so common in yard lights and street lighting of the past is |> | more than twice as efficient as incandescent. |> |> But none of them produce the quality of light that incandescent does, which |> is needed is _some_ places. |> |> -- |> |WARNING: Due to extreme spam, googlegroups.com is blocked. ?Due to ignorance | |> | ? ? ? ? by the abuse department, bellsouth.net is blocked. ?If you post to ?| |> | ? ? ? ? Usenet from these places, find another Usenet provider ASAP. ? ? ? ?| |> | Phil Howard KA9WGN (email for humans: first name in lower case at ipal.net) | | | Go read a review a Popular Mechanics Mag, its old but its there, For | facial color the HD bulb beat Incandesant. New warm white cfls are | advancing fast.
The article doesn't seem to be there. Searching for "HD bulb" found 0 articles.
BTW, I'm not talking about facial color. I'm talking about continuity of the visible spectrum. That is, how well the light emits energy at all wavelengths within the visible light range.
--
|WARNING: Due to extreme spam, googlegroups.com is blocked. Due to ignorance |
| by the abuse department, bellsouth.net is blocked. If you post to |
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
βœ–
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On 21 Jun 2008 03:07:12 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@ipal.net wrote:

Try doing a critical evaluation of color balance under a fluorescent some time. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Retired Shop Rat: 14,647 days in a GM plant. Speak softly and carry a loaded .45 Lifetime member; Vast Right Wing Conspiracy Web Site: www.destarr.com - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Add pictures here
βœ–
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Low voltage incandescents are not affected by the energy legislation.
- Don Klipstein ( snipped-for-privacy@misty.com)
Add pictures here
βœ–
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Fri, 20 Jun 2008 17:30:58 -0400, David Starr
Hi David:

These ones are rated to work down to -10F/-23C:
http://www.nam.lighting.philips.com/us/ecatalog/cfl/pdf/p-5095.pdf

As I've indicated here several times before, the provisions related to incandescent lamps within the "Energy Independence and Security Act of 2007 (HR6)" are limited to "general service" only -- in other words, your standard A19 household lamp. The Act defines "general service" as:
1) having a medium (E27) screw-base; 2) a light output of between 310 and 2600 lumens; 3) an operating voltage of between 110 and130V; and 4) a standard or "modified" light spectrum (e.g.., GE's "Reveal").
Within this group, incandescent lamps that are specifically **EXCLUDED** include the following:
appliance black light bug coloured infrared left-hand thread (used where lamps may be stolen) marine/marine signal mine service plant light reflector rough service / shatter-resistant / vibration service sign silver bowl showcase 3-way traffic signal G & T shape AB, BA, CA, F, G16-1/2, G-25, G30, S and M-14
Cheers, Paul
Add pictures here
βœ–
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
wrote:
| Within this group, incandescent lamps that are specifically | **EXCLUDED** include the following: | | appliance | black light <---- This could be done better with fluorescent | bug | coloured | infrared | left-hand thread (used where lamps may be stolen) | marine/marine signal | mine service | plant light | reflector | rough service / shatter-resistant / vibration service | sign | silver bowl | showcase | 3-way | traffic signal <--- lots of these have changed to LED anyway | G & T shape | AB, BA, CA, F, G16-1/2, G-25, G30, S and M-14
What about ophidian lights? I've always used the standard base ones for this. I suppose I could substitute a plant light or a small infrared.
I was going to switch to low-voltage lamps for task lights, anyway, so I guess for the most part this doesn't really affect me.
We need a law that taxes or just outright bans importation of cheap CFLs.
--
|WARNING: Due to extreme spam, googlegroups.com is blocked. Due to ignorance |
| by the abuse department, bellsouth.net is blocked. If you post to |
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
βœ–
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On 21 Jun 2008 03:14:30 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@ipal.net wrote:

Hi Phil,
I'm not sure what wattage lamp you use, but if its light output exceeds 2,600 lumens, it falls outside this legislation. For example, a 150-watt Osram Sylvania A21 incandescent is rated at 2,780 lumens (clear) and 2,640 lumens (soft white).
Cheers, Paul
Add pictures here
βœ–
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On 21 Jun 2008 15:04:27 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@ipal.net wrote:

Hi Phil,
Alternatively, if you don't require that much light, you could simply opt for a halogen lamp of a lesser wattage; e.g., a 40-watt Halogenα ES provides the same amount of light as a conventional 60-watt incandescent and lasts up to four times longer.
If you're still contemplating a low-voltage solution, Philip's IRC MR16 are some of the best available.
See: http://www.nam.lighting.philips.com/us/ecatalog/halogen/pdf/p-5758.pdf
Cheers, Paul
Add pictures here
βœ–
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
wrote: | On 21 Jun 2008 15:04:27 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@ipal.net wrote: | |>|>What about ophidian lights? I've always used the standard base ones for this. |>|>I suppose I could substitute a plant light or a small infrared. |>|> |>|>I was going to switch to low-voltage lamps for task lights, anyway, so I guess |>|>for the most part this doesn't really affect me. |>|> |>|>We need a law that taxes or just outright bans importation of cheap CFLs. |>| |>| Hi Phil, |>| |>| I'm not sure what wattage lamp you use, but if its light output |>| exceeds 2,600 lumens, it falls outside this legislation. For example, |>| a 150-watt Osram Sylvania A21 incandescent is rated at 2,780 lumens |>| (clear) and 2,640 lumens (soft white). |> |>So just run this on one of this half-wave rectifying dimmers to cut the |>power in half and you have a nice warm 40 watt light that uses 75 watts. | | Hi Phil, | | Alternatively, if you don't require that much light, you could simply | opt for a halogen lamp of a lesser wattage; e.g., a 40-watt Halogen? | ES provides the same amount of light as a conventional 60-watt | incandescent and lasts up to four times longer. | | If you're still contemplating a low-voltage solution, Philip's IRC | MR16 are some of the best available. | | See: | http://www.nam.lighting.philips.com/us/ecatalog/halogen/pdf/p-5758.pdf
5000 hours? Not all that good. Half will be burned out in 3 years of regular use (about 5 hours a day).
I've been considering both MR16 (GU5.3 12v) and MR11 (what pin for 6v?) for various lighting fixtures in the home I'll be building. I may opt for the smaller ones so I can select the illumination level by turning selected lights on and off rather than dimming. My original idea was to go with 6 volt 12 watt lights if those are available in MR11 or some other kind of halogen form factor.
What I don't like about these lights is the pitch of the facet in the reflector. I would like the pitch to be about 10 to 20 times smaller. A frosted glass would, of course, help, too.
--
|WARNING: Due to extreme spam, googlegroups.com is blocked. Due to ignorance |
| by the abuse department, bellsouth.net is blocked. If you post to |
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
βœ–
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On 24 Jun 2008 17:20:49 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@ipal.net wrote:

Hi Phil,
In the context of a regular A19 incandescent lamp with a nominal life of 750 hours to 1,500 hours, 5,000 hours strikes me as pretty good (since our original conversation pertained to standard household incandescents, I limited our options to incandescent and halogen light sources).
If long life is important, some of the new Philips T8s fluorescents have a rated service life of up to 46,000 hours but, then, as you indicated in another thread you refuse to use linear fluorescents in your home due to potential concerns related to Hg. On that basis, I presume we can rule out metal halide as well.
Cheers, Paul
Add pictures here
βœ–
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
wrote: | On 24 Jun 2008 17:20:49 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@ipal.net wrote: | |>| Hi Phil, |>| |>| Alternatively, if you don't require that much light, you could simply |>| opt for a halogen lamp of a lesser wattage; e.g., a 40-watt Halogen? |>| ES provides the same amount of light as a conventional 60-watt |>| incandescent and lasts up to four times longer. |>| |>| If you're still contemplating a low-voltage solution, Philip's IRC |>| MR16 are some of the best available. |>| |>| See: |>| http://www.nam.lighting.philips.com/us/ecatalog/halogen/pdf/p-5758.pdf |> |>5000 hours? Not all that good. Half will be burned out in 3 years of |>regular use (about 5 hours a day). | | | Hi Phil, | | In the context of a regular A19 incandescent lamp with a nominal life | of 750 hours to 1,500 hours, 5,000 hours strikes me as pretty good | (since our original conversation pertained to standard household | incandescents, I limited our options to incandescent and halogen light | sources).
If the ordinary bulb ratings are only that (I really haven't looked in ages, since I rarely need to buy them), then the numbers are different. What I read in the referenced PDF was that these 5000 hour ratings is a 50% remaining rate. That's NOT what I see for regular incandescent bulbs at 750 hours. Oddly enough, the bulbs that seem to burn out the most are the ones in various table lamps subject to lots of vibration. All the bulbs in all the hanging lamps and all the ceiling cans have not burned out in the 5 years I've been in this house (that my mother had built and my father now owns). Most of them are on all evening.
| If long life is important, some of the new Philips T8s fluorescents | have a rated service life of up to 46,000 hours but, then, as you | indicated in another thread you refuse to use linear fluorescents in | your home due to potential concerns related to Hg. On that basis, I | presume we can rule out metal halide as well.
That's not my primary concern. It is a concern, and one that _may_ limit my use of them. My primary concern is the poor spectrum (not the color) of every fluorescent light I have ever seen. What I am referring to is that the spectrum is not as uniformly continuous as incandescent. These are therefore ruled out for critical task lighting areas (especially kitchen and shop).
--
|WARNING: Due to extreme spam, googlegroups.com is blocked. Due to ignorance |
| by the abuse department, bellsouth.net is blocked. If you post to |
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
βœ–
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On 25 Jun 2008 07:05:28 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@ipal.net wrote:

Hi Phil,
As with the halogens I identified above, incandescent lamp life is based on the same 50 per cent rule -- that is an industry-wide standard. For a graphical representation of this, see page 2 of:
http://www.sylvania.com/content/display.scfx?id 3694068

Sorry for my confusion. When you said "What about long tube fluorescent lights that I also refuse to put in my home for the same reason?" in relation to our other discussion pertaining to Hg, I understood the word "refuse" to be an absolute.
If your primary concern is good light quality, there are fluorescent lamps with a very high CRI such as the Philips TL930 (95 CRI) and TL950 (98 CRI), but if you require something better than that, it's probably best to stick with an incandescent or halogen source. And if you're concerned your access to these lamps may be restricted at some future date, you can always stock up on whatever you use now as a precaution.
Cheers, Paul
Add pictures here
βœ–
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
wrote:
| As with the halogens I identified above, incandescent lamp life is | based on the same 50 per cent rule -- that is an industry-wide | standard. For a graphical representation of this, see page 2 of: | | http://www.sylvania.com/content/display.scfx?id 3694068
Then something's out of whack somewhere. I see far more than 50% of bulbs last beyond 750 hours of usage. That didn't catch my attention before as I did not assume something like the 50% basis.
|>| If long life is important, some of the new Philips T8s fluorescents |>| have a rated service life of up to 46,000 hours but, then, as you |>| indicated in another thread you refuse to use linear fluorescents in |>| your home due to potential concerns related to Hg. On that basis, I |>| presume we can rule out metal halide as well. |> |>That's not my primary concern. It is a concern, and one that _may_ limit |>my use of them. My primary concern is the poor spectrum (not the color) of |>every fluorescent light I have ever seen. What I am referring to is that |>the spectrum is not as uniformly continuous as incandescent. These are |>therefore ruled out for critical task lighting areas (especially kitchen |>and shop). | | | Sorry for my confusion. When you said "What about long tube | fluorescent lights that I also refuse to put in my home for the same | reason?" in relation to our other discussion pertaining to Hg, I | understood the word "refuse" to be an absolute.
It might be absolute. I'm actually undecided at the moment. This applies to the design of my new home, which I have not timeline, yet, for building. I'm refusing to put fluorescent fixtures into that design unless and until I see some solid proof I should not be concerned with it.
| If your primary concern is good light quality, there are fluorescent | lamps with a very high CRI such as the Philips TL930 (95 CRI) and | TL950 (98 CRI), but if you require something better than that, it's | probably best to stick with an incandescent or halogen source. And if | you're concerned your access to these lamps may be restricted at some | future date, you can always stock up on whatever you use now as a | precaution.
My primary concern is an aspect of light quality that has nothing to do with the CRI rating. As I understand it, CRI refers to the balancing of color in the spectrum within the confines of how human eyes perceive it so the color of illuminated objects looks correct or natural. My concern is more with the way the spectrum affects contrast edges given that human eyes, and worse when corrective or magnifying lenses are involved, do not focus the light spectrum at a single point. Under a single visible wavelength, contrast edges always look as sharp as the viewer can see them. Under a broad continuous spectrum of white light, the edges will be slightly blurred, but will be uniform. But, under a the harsh light of 3 distinct single wavelengths, that edge will look like 3 distinct colored edges. That's the worse situation. Fluorescent light corrects this poorly because its spectrum has "hills and valleys" despite the color balance being a reasonable white. LED has the same issue but I think there may be more hope to correct this for LED than for FL (since FL has been around for so long and this hasn't been fixed). Some HID has less of an issue with it. MV and MH are bad, but HPS seems to be OK (though it has very poor color in the eye of many).
As for stocking up, I'm not worried. There will be a black market. There always is. It's not like they are going to put that much effort into this. It's not like pirating software/music/movies.
--
|WARNING: Due to extreme spam, googlegroups.com is blocked. Due to ignorance |
| by the abuse department, bellsouth.net is blocked. If you post to |
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
βœ–
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On 25 Jun 2008 15:08:35 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@ipal.net wrote:

Hi Phil,
A couple possible explanations. One is that although a standard 100-watt incandescent has a nominal service life of 750 hours, the 25, 40 and 60-watt versions are typically rated at 1,000 hours. Secondly, manufacturers have been introducing products that are shifting the balance between higher lumen output and longer life further towards the latter, so you may have noticed the elogic lamps in the above link have a rated life of anywhere from 1,125 hours (95-watt) to 2,250 in the case of the 40-watt equivalent. Line voltage and the use of dimmers can also dramatically affect lamp life.

Fair enough.

If you're extremely fussy about spectral distribution, I don't see any clear winners. Philip's new MasterColour Elite ceramic metal halide lamps are arguably the very best the industry has to offer; you can see its distribution graph on page 2 of the following spec sheet and draw your own conclusions.
See: http://www.nam.lighting.philips.com/us/ecatalog/hid/pdf/p-5899.pdf
The spectral performance of their TL930 and TL950 lamps can be found here:
http://www.nam.lighting.philips.com/us/ecatalog/fluor/pdf/P-5037-D.pdf

Sounds reasonable.
Cheers, Paul
Add pictures here
βœ–
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
wrote: | On 25 Jun 2008 15:08:35 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@ipal.net wrote: |
wrote: |> |>| As with the halogens I identified above, incandescent lamp life is |>| based on the same 50 per cent rule -- that is an industry-wide |>| standard. For a graphical representation of this, see page 2 of: |>| |>| http://www.sylvania.com/content/display.scfx?id 3694068 |> |>Then something's out of whack somewhere. I see far more than 50% of bulbs |>last beyond 750 hours of usage. That didn't catch my attention before as I |>did not assume something like the 50% basis. | | | Hi Phil, | | A couple possible explanations. One is that although a standard | 100-watt incandescent has a nominal service life of 750 hours, the 25, | 40 and 60-watt versions are typically rated at 1,000 hours. Secondly, | manufacturers have been introducing products that are shifting the | balance between higher lumen output and longer life further towards | the latter, so you may have noticed the elogic lamps in the above link | have a rated life of anywhere from 1,125 hours (95-watt) to 2,250 in | the case of the 40-watt equivalent. Line voltage and the use of | dimmers can also dramatically affect lamp life.
I looked at my spare lightbulb supply today. Most did not have boxes. But one set still did. These are 25-watt and show 2500 hours.
http://phil.ipal.org/usenet/aee/2008-06-26/s6301196.jpg
So I guess I should raise the issue not specifically about 5000 hours, but about the 50% basis.
| If you're extremely fussy about spectral distribution, I don't see any | clear winners. Philip's new MasterColour Elite ceramic metal halide | lamps are arguably the very best the industry has to offer; you can | see its distribution graph on page 2 of the following spec sheet and | draw your own conclusions. | | See: | http://www.nam.lighting.philips.com/us/ecatalog/hid/pdf/p-5899.pdf | | The spectral performance of their TL930 and TL950 lamps can be found | here: | | http://www.nam.lighting.philips.com/us/ecatalog/fluor/pdf/P-5037-D.pdf
I have not seen good light from MH lamps, either.
A better fluorescent formulation could fix FL lamps. But it would require so many different compounds to make an even spectrum that it would most likely be prohibitively expensive. I have found that LEDs come in enough discrete wavelengths that this might work. But they degrade at different rates over time, and keeping it in color balance would be hard.
--
|WARNING: Due to extreme spam, googlegroups.com is blocked. Due to ignorance |
| by the abuse department, bellsouth.net is blocked. If you post to |
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
βœ–
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

150 watt incandescent with a diode consumes about 88 watts, give or take a bit. The 2640-2780 lumens decreases to about 800-870 lumens (light output of "standard", "soft white" and even 1500 hour, maybe "double life" 60 watt incandescents).
- Don Klipstein ( snipped-for-privacy@misty.com)
Add pictures here
βœ–
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
|>In alt.engineering.electrical Paul M. Eldridge
| |>| Hi Phil, |>| |>| I'm not sure what wattage lamp you use, but if its light output |>| exceeds 2,600 lumens, it falls outside this legislation. For example, |>| a 150-watt Osram Sylvania A21 incandescent is rated at 2,780 lumens |>| (clear) and 2,640 lumens (soft white). |> |>So just run this on one of this half-wave rectifying dimmers to cut the |>power in half and you have a nice warm 40 watt light that uses 75 watts. | | 150 watt incandescent with a diode consumes about 88 watts, give or take | a bit. The 2640-2780 lumens decreases to about 800-870 lumens (light | output of "standard", "soft white" and even 1500 hour, maybe "double life" | 60 watt incandescents).
What color temp?
--
|WARNING: Due to extreme spam, googlegroups.com is blocked. Due to ignorance |
| by the abuse department, bellsouth.net is blocked. If you post to |
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
βœ–
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
For all the panty-waists out there who whine about CFLs containing mercury and, in particular, those who oppose the use of energy saving lamps and advocate the construction of more coal-fired plants instead:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/24/business/24recycling.html?ref=environment
Cheers, Paul
Add pictures here
βœ–
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Related Threads

    HomeOwnersHub.com is a website for homeowners and building and maintenance pros. It is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.