Complexity of dyes in kitchen cabinets

Page 4 of 5  
On 11/1/10 7:07 PM, Robatoy wrote:

I love all those video mash-ups!

Right on... looks like a very young Chick Webb on the drums.
--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On 11/1/2010 7:19 PM, -MIKE- wrote:

Just like the description for the clip says, that IS insane! They just don't play (or dance!) like that any more.

The clip is from 1943 and Chick died in 1939. J.C. Heard was Calloway's drummer at the time of this performance.
--
Free bad advice available here.
To reply, eat the taco.
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On 11/1/10 9:06 PM, Steve Turner wrote:

Thank you, sir. I was wondering, because I don't remember ever seeing Webb with a mustache.
--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
-MIKE- wrote:

Hey, I'm a musician too, and Lew say's I'm--uh, meticulous, maybe I can get in on some of that! : )
Bill
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Right. I call them wallyas..."Wallya at it, why don't we put an arched transom over that door?"
I suppose if someone commonly did pretty straightforward projects, where the extras didn't amount to a large percentage, then, sure, not treating extras as a profit centre and waiving administrative fees is not a big deal. I pick my own charities, and a paying customer is not one of them. I don't gouge. On occasion I will waive a fee and the owner appreciates the courtesy.
I've had projects where the kitchen remodeling contract price was double the original ballpark estimate, the final contract work was again doubled with extras, and _that_ was doubled with the other stuff I did on the house. Am I supposed to write up a new contract for an extra, regardless of the size of the extra or the number of them? That makes no sense at all. My contract is complete and there's no reason to add another one. It would just muddy the water. Of course extras are _a_ profit center, but, as they are extras they can't be _the_ profit centaur, only another one.
I'm just curious what the OP's contractor's justification is. I'm betting it's half real and half greed.
R
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
"RicodJour" wrote:

------------------------------------- As my fraternity brother, who headed the control systems operation of a major systems integrator defined it, "Change in scope".
Translation:
At least a $25K upgrade to the contract, and this was Richard Nixon time frame.
Go to be at least $40K-$50K today.
Lew
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Very accurate and well presented point!
Colbyt
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Don't know about the cost of $750 but I can envision a dye change costing extra money. At the very least, it means twice the amount of spray booth and spray gun clean up effort. It might also mean ordering and possibly another trip to the supplier for different dye. Might be the same gun being used for the job, so it would have to be thoroughly cleaned for a different dye. As you said, there's the administrative cost, new paperwork, ecetera.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Reading this, it reminds me of how much I hate change orders. Clients think you are screwing them when you quote a price, unless it is free.
Your guys hate them since as single cell organisms they are forced to think around a new aspect instead of trudging through the day as they normally do. My primadonnas don't like them because as brain surgeons/skilled workers, they may not have their mind right.
(Funny... they can always get their mind right to and be imminently flexible to cover one of their screwups....)
When I do a remodel or extensive repair, I sit down and educate, teach, inform, and go over all aspects of the processes involved. That includes change orders. I always tell them that by they time they want to change something, they may be "too late", or that my answer will be "no".
To scare the absolute living crap out of them, I always end that part of the sermon with "of course, ALL things are possible with more money...."
I have remarkably few requests for changes to the proscribed work.
I did a few hundred thousand feet of office finish out in the 80's boom. I incorporated a pitch that I still use today based on my experience from that time.
Unless it is convenient to me and they are willing to pay for it, the answer is "no". I am not inflexible, but clients don't understand that good contractors work on a schedule, and the tighter the better.
They often times find some kind of ragged shit on sale somewhere, and want me to incorporate that into their work someway.
The ceiling fan is a great example. Say your client drags home a ceiling fan from the Borg and has to get it installed in the vaulted ceiling.
Let's take a look:
You know that your *approved* electrical plans say that they have the max allowed boxes installed before this fan.
So you need a new circuit.
You will have to make and submit an updated drawing to the City, that will take 10 more days to approve after you drive the plans downtown and pay the new plan review fee.
Your electrician has to crawl across scissored ceiling joists (scary!) filled with insulation and A/C lines to get to the new location of the fan. He blocks up the fan location, and runs another 50' of romex, and installs a new J box.
He runs the line to the wall over the circuit box, then drops it down to reach later.
He turns off all the power to the house, and adds a circuit breaker. He attaches the new line, and tests it for power.
He goes out to the truck and gets his extra tall ladder and sets up. He assembles the fan and hangs it.
He attaches the electricity and checks for proper installation. Installation complete.
So you have lost hours of your time creating and resubmitting a drawing, taking it to the code compliance office, and going over what you want from your electrician. You have cost of about 6 hours of electrician's time, a handy or J box, 50' of romex, a circuit breaker, and a couple more incidentals.
You may have also had to put off painters, cleaners, etc. in your schedule.
To me, $350 is cheap. Your people want a warranty! $350 is <really> cheap. Should be $750 or better for something with new circuits, etc.
But their response? "But Robert, Home Depot says they will hang a fan for $125!"
Do you take them to contractor school to show them how you arrive at your numbers? Nope.
You just say "no, remember, we talked about this type of thing..."
I'm not that flexible anymore. I nail down everything, then get the machine in gear and on target. No distractions.
Unless of course I remember my own saying , "of course, ALL things are possible with more money...."
With enough we are all friends. Personally though, I would prefer NO change orders at all. I never nickel and dime clients, and I don't take it from them. If it is a substantial change, they are indeed going to pay for it.
Robert
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
I hate top-posting, but hate 1-liners at the end of long posts more.
I can't snip any of it because I think it is the perfect answer.
So, nailshooter, can you do a roof near Schenectady, NY next spring?<g>
Jim

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

I like your attitude/methods Robert. Communication is the key.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On 11/2/2010 4:23 AM, snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

From my basic contract:
4. There will no deviations from the work specified herein unless agreed to by Change Order in writing by both parties.
4.1 A Change Order is any change to the original plans and/or specifications. All change orders need to be agreed upon in writing, including cost, additional time considerations, approximate dates when the work will begin and be completed and signed by both parties.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
CHANGE ORDER COST PLUS Date:
Owner: Street Address City, State Postal Code Contact Telephone
Contractor: Company Address Company Phone
For the Project: Project Address:
The Owner authorizes the Contractor to make the following changes to the above project:
Description:
Attachments:                                                  The following is based on information provided by the contractor.
Contract Sum     Original Contract Amount: $                
Revised Contract Amount Prior to this Change Order: $                
Cost for this Change Order: $                
Multiplied by (Number) Percent = $                
The New Contract Total including this Change Order: $                
Contract Time:
Change in Contract Time for this Change Order: Days    
Date of Substantial Commencement for this Change Order shall be: Date                  
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

* SNIP *
Get a cup of coffee... this is a long one.
A couple of thoughts....
All valid points in the post Karl, as are the points preceding. On my master contract (going from memory - not at my own computer) I have another caveat that is somewhere in this neighborhood:
"While this Change Order affects the original scope of work and its cost, it does not affect the Terms and Conditions of the original Contract. All Terms and Conditions of the original Contract, unless otherwise specified within this Change Order will be observed and in effect as agreed to by both parties as if no modifications had been made to the original Contract."
My contract delineates that "The Scope of Work to be Performed" has all the details, including time needed to perform the work. It includes the cost of work to be performed as well as materials needed to perform the work.
When I built anything of substance, I kept a book of finish selections and spelled out where each paint color went, each tile selection, each bit of wallpaper, carpet, wood floor, deck stain, counter tops, etc. This book of finishes became part of the contract by reference to "see finish selections". My paint suppliers are required by me (now they are printed automatically) to write the paint number on each can received to match up with the book. Same with wallpaper, etc. I made a copy for the client, but kept the original with their initials and date under each selection under every selection.
My biggest problem when building a house (only built 5) was the people changing their minds about finishes and colors. (I ran back screaming to commercial my first chance to get away from houses.)
The Terms and Conditions part of my contract specify where to pay, when to pay, and *a lot* of language warning the client that under no circumstances will they screw around with me or our agreement. It has the standard exculpatory language to protect me, but it also sets for that if I have to hire any kind of help for payment, they will pay not only the amount invoiced, but all related fees required to collect including MY time.
(As a sidebar, I have tested this clause. I can recover the amount needed to collect such as attorney's fees, etc. I was not allowed to collect money for my time in that particular case because it wasn't an exorbitant amount and the judge decided that should be part of my cost of doing business.)
I found it necessary to add the "from memory clause" above into my contract as an attorney friend of mine reviewed my contract and told me that would be a good idea since **technically** I had changed the contract without limiting the scope of change.
Think about it.... yes, we agreed to the add on, and its cost. Yes, we agreed it increased the price. We further spelled out the time needed to complete the specified work.
But... did we agree to the same exculpatory language? Did we spell out the exact method and time of payment and what would happen if those tenets weren't observed? In the case of any overlapping work touched on by the contract, was/is it reasonable for the client to assume that the new work would be treated differently in any way other than specified in the contract? Will you have to listen to the dreaded "oh... I didn't understand that... I thought this was separate". Since it is more money, how will it affect the pay schedule? You need to make sure the additional work and additional money are completely protected.
You get the drift.
Over the years I have seen so damn many of my contracting amigos take it in the shorts because they didn't have the legal experience to fight off an unruly client. One of them in particular had trouble with a client that paid the contract amount for work just fine, but since the terms and conditions of payment for the change orders weren't spelled out, the judge chastised him in small claims court for not spelling out the terms of payment. That judge considered the change order (careful to point out this out here; it was an ADD ON, NOT a modification like a paint color change) to be a completely different issue, and a completely different contract. Sadly, one with no teeth for my amigo. The judge told my amigo that he thought the change order resembled an invoice, not a component of a larger contract.
While every attorney will look at any contract and tell you they can break it easily, I haven't had one of mine broken yet. I am diligent, and I have been tested.
But the amount of paper work and contractual expertise we have to have these days to do the smallest thing is amazing to me.
One thing I have found out though; if you have a client that is going to screw you, no amount of paperwork and legal blather will save you. Nothing will. You will get screwed.
All a good contract does is to keep everyone on the same page, remind them of what was agreed to, and to provide reference for how the job is to be handled.
There is an attorney here in town that has something like 14 liens against his home.... and he has another group of judgments as well. He is legendary, and he does well until he has someone like me that files a mechanic's lien against the house BEFORE I start a major remodel, and modify it along the project time line.
When he finds someone like me (he hasn't found me, though!) he is screwed. But there are plenty of guys ready to jump into the briar patch with him.
I still remember when I did 99% of my business on a handshake. Man, does that seem like a eon ago now.
Robert
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
wrote:

What did you charge for the handshake? ;)
On of the only times I got screwed was on a handshake. It was pretty weird as I was working as a subcontractor for a guy who had always been my subcontractor and we had never had any sort of problem. I didn't realize that handshakes were directional!
Good post. One question. I didn't know that a mechanic's lien could be recorded prior to work being done. How is that and where are you?
R
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On 11/3/2010 7:53 AM, RicodJour wrote:

That's a new one on me also ... being constantly required to obtain releases, I'm pretty familiar with Chapter 53 of the Texas Property Code and it seems on the surface that the notice requirements would preclude that.
Then again, I'm not a lawyer, I just play one on the keyboard, and since it was surely written by the breed, there are undoubtedly trapdoors, intended or otherwise.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On 11/3/2010 8:48 AM, Swingman wrote:

I forget to add that I do recall a provision that when working with a retainage, a lien can be filed at inception on the retainage, but I was under the impression that it also took some type of notice and agreement of all parties ... then again, it seems a pretty antagonistic thing to do a client, but the guy in Robert's example sounds like he deserves it.
:)
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Wouldn't touch the guy with a backhoe, no matter how potentially lucrative the project or what protective clauses were in the contract. The guy should be disbarred, and I'm sure eventually will be.
R
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Wouldn't touch the guy with a backhoe, no matter how potentially lucrative the project or what protective clauses were in the contract. The guy should be disbarred, and I'm sure eventually will be.
R
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Now that sir, is sad. I have had different folks screw me, and some got away with it. Realistically, how do you collect a $350 repair when the folks don't want to pay it? How much is your time worth, especially knowing the court system it could be a year and a half before you come up in small claims court.
I have been working here so long that with my subs it isn't at all unusual for me to contract for $7 - $10K on a handshake. Many will start on a job for me (like my roofing subs) without knowing anything about the job but when and where to show up. We *never* talk about money until the job is finished. In fact, I help some of them bid the jobs they do for me (and others) as I want to make sure they make money and stay in business for our future endeavors.
They know if they do what they are supposed to do, I will treat them fairly. I have a tendency to pay just a little bit more than the market price for services to my favorite guys, so they respond by taking good care of me.
Thankfully, the only big ticket item I ever got screwed on was when a group of doctors filed for bankruptcy just as I finished their office finish out. I was hit for a little over $16K, and I thought I would never drink that one off.
But as far as a fellow contractor trying to put the drill to me..... I literally grew up in construction. I know how to handle those things for the most part. No lawyer needed.

I ONLY do this when it is a big ticket contract and folks I don't know. I like for my clients to know that we are playing on a level field and they will nt be hiding behind any legal maneuvering or shenanigans.
I am in Texas and spent a great deal of time in finance here, so I learned from some very knowledgeable people.
I managed the construction/remodel portfolio of Norwest Banks when they were here. As a matter of course, we filed a lien against the property before allowing any work to start, because in Texas the oldest liens (first filed) are considered superior to any subsequent liens.
In the case of the liens being addressed (paid), each lien is completely satisfied before going to the next inferior lien.
When at Norwest, we executed some fairly sophisticated liens structures for their time, and modified them after each draw. Each draw required 1) an invoice for a certain dollar amount from a contractor 2) a description of the work performed requiring a draw 3) a partial release of lien signed by the contractor detailing the percentage of completion. If the contractor used subs for work instead of all employees, we required releases from them as well.
The master lien held by Norwest was modified (reduced) at the end of each billing cycle to reflect the new outstanding amount of the lien, as well as the new loan balance accrued by the payout(s).
At the end of the project, the master lien was released after all monies were paid out and all mechanic's lien waivers had been collected with an attachment that acknowledged that the contractor(s) had been fully paid.
The final release of lien and the loan documents were then given to the permanent financing organization (bank, mortgage company, etc.) and a permanent loan was established.
In the case of remodeling, many folks go to the bank for a second lien these days. This is another opportunity for disaster if you don't know what you are doing. Usually, the client still has a first lien (mortgage). The bank they go to for he second will INSIST on being in second position, superior to any contractor ( "mechanic an workman's" ) liens. That means that the contractor is in the last position.
If for any reason the property is foreclosed upon, (medical problems, divorce, loss of ability to pay, etc.) the mortgage company will foreclose. In Texas, since the mortgage company is almost always the superior lien, they will be completely satisfied, even if they have to take some money out of the second lien position. What is left after the first is satisfied is the bank's position, and after that the poor contractor.
So imagine this; clients start a new large room addition. The main earner loses a job. The house is foreclosed upon. When sold on the courthouse steps, it is under the market price because it is not only a slow market now, but because the work wasn't completed since the people quit paying their bills. Since they have a bunch of unfinished work to contend with, bids are low and not much money is generated at the foreclosure sale.
The mortgage company will most certainly be satisfied. The bank is a little shakier, but they are great at protecting their own ASSets. But that that poor contractor waits to see if there is any money left after the banks pick the loan clean....
If the superior lien holders take all the money, the contractor gets nothing. In this economy with falling real estate prices, it happens all the time.
He is off to civil court to try to go after the client personally. Good luck with that one.
Texas has some strong (and strange) real estate laws. New construction is different than remodel, and you need to get a good title company (or a law firm that specializes in real estate liens) to make sure you have the proper liens filed the correct way.
Lonnnnng ago I found that it is more important to be a good business man than it is to be a good contractor. You can lose your whole company in one poorly structured deal. You can be a pretty good contractor and still stay in business. But if you don't know the legal aspects of what you are doing, the right customer (or their attorney) can skin you alive if they want.
It's a jungle out there.
Robert
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Related Threads

    HomeOwnersHub.com is a website for homeowners and building and maintenance pros. It is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.