Complexity of dyes in kitchen cabinets

[Mike Marlow]

That statement just begs for more explanation and insight.

[nailshooter41]

Reading this, it reminds me of how much I hate change orders. Clients think you are screwing them when you quote a price, unless it is free.

Your guys hate them since as single cell organisms they are forced to think around a new aspect instead of trudging through the day as they normally do. My primadonnas don't like them because as brain surgeons/skilled workers, they may not have their mind right.

(Funny... they can always get their mind right to and be imminently flexible to cover one of their screwups....)

When I do a remodel or extensive repair, I sit down and educate, teach, inform, and go over all aspects of the processes involved. That includes change orders. I always tell them that by they time they want to change something, they may be "too late", or that my answer will be "no".

To scare the absolute living crap out of them, I always end that part of the sermon with "of course, ALL things are possible with more money...."

I have remarkably few requests for changes to the proscribed work.

I did a few hundred thousand feet of office finish out in the 80's boom. I incorporated a pitch that I still use today based on my experience from that time.

Unless it is convenient to me and they are willing to pay for it, the answer is "no". I am not inflexible, but clients don't understand that good contractors work on a schedule, and the tighter the better.

They often times find some kind of ragged shit on sale somewhere, and want me to incorporate that into their work someway.

The ceiling fan is a great example. Say your client drags home a ceiling fan from the Borg and has to get it installed in the vaulted ceiling.

Let's take a look:

You know that your *approved* electrical plans say that they have the max allowed boxes installed before this fan.

So you need a new circuit.

You will have to make and submit an updated drawing to the City, that will take 10 more days to approve after you drive the plans downtown and pay the new plan review fee.

Your electrician has to crawl across scissored ceiling joists (scary!) filled with insulation and A/C lines to get to the new location of the fan. He blocks up the fan location, and runs another 50' of romex, and installs a new J box.

He runs the line to the wall over the circuit box, then drops it down to reach later.

He turns off all the power to the house, and adds a circuit breaker. He attaches the new line, and tests it for power.

He goes out to the truck and gets his extra tall ladder and sets up. He assembles the fan and hangs it.

He attaches the electricity and checks for proper installation. Installation complete.

So you have lost hours of your time creating and resubmitting a drawing, taking it to the code compliance office, and going over what you want from your electrician. You have cost of about 6 hours of electrician's time, a handy or J box, 50' of romex, a circuit breaker, and a couple more incidentals.

You may have also had to put off painters, cleaners, etc. in your schedule.

To me, $350 is cheap. Your people want a warranty! $350 is cheap. Should be $750 or better for something with new circuits, etc.

But their response? "But Robert, Home Depot says they will hang a fan for $125!"

Do you take them to contractor school to show them how you arrive at your numbers? Nope.

You just say "no, remember, we talked about this type of thing..."

I'm not that flexible anymore. I nail down everything, then get the machine in gear and on target. No distractions.

Unless of course I remember my own saying , "of course, ALL things are possible with more money...."

With enough we are all friends. Personally though, I would prefer NO change orders at all. I never nickel and dime clients, and I don't take it from them. If it is a substantial change, they are indeed going to pay for it.

Robert

[Jim Elbrecht]

-snip-

Actually- the OP [Sam] asked how come his guy wanted $750 for a job he didn't think should cost that much. He asked- but hasn't returned so we don't know if they were administrative fees or not.

Jim

[Jim Elbrecht]

I hate top-posting, but hate 1-liners at the end of long posts more.

I can't snip any of it because I think it is the perfect answer.

So, nailshooter, can you do a roof near Schenectady, NY next spring?

Jim

" [e-mail]" wrote:

[Lee Michaels]

wrote

There ya go. A scared shitless client is a good client.

I like your attitude/methods Robert. Communication is the key.

[Swingman]

From my basic contract:

1. There will no deviations from the work specified herein unless agreed to by Change Order in writing by both parties.

4.1 A Change Order is any change to the original plans and/or specifications. All change orders need to be agreed upon in writing, including cost, additional time considerations, approximate dates when the work will begin and be completed and signed by both parties.

[Mike Marlow]

To not charge extras even with industrial customers would seem to imply some good reason for that practive. Extras are a reality in the commercial world so it only seems likely there is a reason why you don't charge an extra dime to satisfy your industrial customers.

[Mike Marlow]

I appreciate the correction Jim. Had not really followed this thread from the original post, so I missed that.

[Swingman]

CHANGE ORDER ? COST PLUS Date:

Owner: Street Address City, State Postal Code Contact Telephone

Contractor: Company Address Company Phone

For the Project: Project Address:

The Owner authorizes the Contractor to make the following changes to the above project:

Description:

Attachments: The following is based on information provided by the contractor.

Contract Sum Original Contract Amount: $

Revised Contract Amount Prior to this Change Order: $

Cost for this Change Order: $

Multiplied by (Number) Percent = $

The New Contract Total including this Change Order: $

Contract Time:

Change in Contract Time for this Change Order: Days

Date of Substantial Commencement for this Change Order shall be: Date

[RicodJour]

1. CHANGES TO THE PROJECT, CONTRACT PRICE OR CONTRACT TIME

A Change Order is a written order prepared by the Contractor and signed by the Owner and Contractor, issued after execution of the Contract, authorizing a change in the Project, Contract Price or the Contract Time. The Project, Contract Price and the Contract Time may be modified only by a Change Order. Any change or proposed change submitted to the Owner for review and signature must be reviewed and finalized within a reasonable period of time.

Any changes not required by unforeseen conditions or beyond the control of the Owner shall be priced according to the Contractor's normal pricing policy, and shall include an administrative charge of $100. All Change Orders shall be priced prior to presentation to the Owner. No portion of the Project shall be suspended or delayed in contemplation of a proposed Change Order. The Owner shall make payment in full upon his signing of the Change Order.

If the Contractor is delayed at any time in the progress of the Project by any act or neglect of the Owner, his agents, or by any separate contractor employed by the Owner, or by changes ordered in the Project, or by labor disputes, fire, unusual delay in transportation, adverse weather not reasonably anticipated, unavoidable casualties, or any causes beyond the Contractor's control, or by delay authorized by the Owner pending mediation, then the Contract Time shall be extended by Change Order for such reasonable time as the Owner and the Contractor determine.

Any supplemental design work requested by the Owner shall be performed at a rate of $150./hour.

The Contractor does not anticipate any Change Order extras at the time of Contract signing, and will not request any Change Order extras, except for Owner requests, latent and concealed conditions, and required construction differing materially from the Contract.

And on a different topic, but still an all time favorite contract clauses:

The Owner shall not bring other contractors, onto the job during the course of the Project. If the Owner desires to have additional work performed by the subcontractor's hired by the Contractor within one year of Project completion, the Contractor's written authorization must be received prior to the start of the additional work.

R

[Leon]

Excellent example Robert!

But in my case, I'm the one wanting to add the ceiling fan, we were still waiting to see of our proposed price for the house would be accepted by the builder. Admittedly there are costs of adding to the plans and cost of labor and materials but nothing in the way of actual building the house had taken place yet.

Additionally the original prices for the ceiling fans were $150 each. To add the price of the extra fan was $150 + $175 for blocking and wiring+ $350 admin.

I was perfectly willing to pay the whole sum but the builder's salesman intervened before presenting me with those figures and "he" got the builder to waive the $350 admin fee.

[Robatoy]

Yo! Prosperity is legal and encouraged! How else could you send money to foreign aid?

[-MIKE-]

I had someone give me that line before. I smiled and said, "Oh that's fine, I fix their mistakes all the time, but I still charge the same, so you can pay both of us, or just me."

[Lew Hodgett]

---------------------------------- What you lose on the apples you make up for on the oranges.

That's one way to run a business, just not mine.

---------------------------------

-------------------------------- It also helps to insure survival.

Lew

[Bill]

In retail,they may use the term "loss leaders". That may be a bit of a stretch here, but not an insurmountable one.

Bill

[nailshooter41]

But Leon, that's all the difference in the world. If a shovel hasn't been turned, to me, you are still in the negotiating aspect. No other schedules have been disrupted or modified, no materials need to be verified as to compatibility, or any of that other stuff.

You are doing what you need to do now, not while in process. Completely different from my example. I wouldn't charge an admin fee upfront while we were still wrangling over prices since I could see for myself what it would cost to make a change, and charge just that much. After all, you want to get the job, right?

It may have been, (Lordy... it's my sales background....) that the "waiving of the fee" was a good sales tactic concocted by the sales rep.

Or, it may have just been common sense on their part.

I was reflecting on the folks that want to change horses after the race has started.

Robert

[Mike Marlow]

I guess we would have to differ on what constitues greed, but it doesn't really matter - you should run your business as you see fit.

[nailshooter41]

I am never a smart ass to my clients. I need and want as much business as I can handle (difference between a part time and full time?), plus I like to stay in control of the situation.

My response to them is: "Wow... that's a great price! If you are sure they can do it for that price, I would wait until we are finished and then call them right away! They must have some special deal cut with someone because of their volume".

And if they call me later, I don't gloat. I am sorry they didn't get what they wanted, sorry they were screwed, and sorry they wasted their time. I give them a chance to save face. I tell them there is a small upcharge if we have left the job, and that's that.

I don't ever bad mouth the other contractor(s) either. Unless the work is pitifully bad, I even try to make excuses for them like "well, I guess when you try to do that much volume you can't supervise every job", and "even the best contractors have bad days".

If they are pissed off enough at the other guy, they will double their attacks on them in front of me while my hands stay clean.

I don't get any satisfaction or remuneration out of being right. I do make money (think of The Walrus and The Carpenter here) when I am the good guy and pick up the pieces for my clients, leaving their dignity intact.

I admit though, I DO love to hear, "damnit Robert, something told me we should have let you handle this".

Robert

[Robatoy]

That is sooooo hard sometimes.

"Well, the installer they had 3 installers ago, last month, he did an okay job, but I have NO idea who they have doing the installs now."

That all depends on how it went and the kind of client. Sometimes I do gloat. I am weak. Can't help myself. " What did I tell you?" sometimes just slips out. Maybe once a year..... If they ridiculed MY price, I WILL gloat.

I'm there on that one. No need to butcher the competition, many will do that themselves...the good ones, well, they don't deserve to be butchered. I have never minded losing a gig to a credible opponent. Amazing how close our quotes can be. Once, on a $14,000 job we were

100 bucks apart. For that reason, I like some of the European quote systems. Get 3 quotes TELL them you're getting 3. Toss high and low. Gets rid of gougers and low-ballers.

Me neither.

How could you not?

[Lew Hodgett]

sure they can do it for that price, I would wait until we are finished and then call them right away! They must have some special deal cut with someone because of their volume".

-------------------------------------- Robert, you silver tongued devil you.

Lew