Brick Front, Weepholes and Bay Windows

Hello,
We have had a problem in our 3 year old home for some time. Our home has a brick front, with two bay windows, each covered with an extruded metal roof. During windy, driving rain, the roofs would leak, eventually causing water to enter the residence.
The metal bay window roofs are attached to the house with roofing cement. There was not line cut into the mortar, and the roofs / flashing were not tucked into this line.
We cut drywall inside the house, allowing us to see the inside of the bay roofs. We can now water test and see where the water enters.
The brick wall just above the left bay window has weepholes installed directly above the bay roofline. The brick wall above the right bay window had no weepholes installed (although the flashing was there). We notified the builder, who had the mason come and insert weepholes. These weepholes were placed a full course above the bay roofline (as that's where the flashing was).
The roofer has tried putting new roofing cement on, etc., but when it rains "just right" or when I water test it with a hose, we still have some water coming in.
He said that he could cut a line in the mortar above the right bay window, and tuck the flashing / roof into it, then put roofing cement on. But, he can't do this over the left, because the flashing / weepholes are right above the roofline.
So, my first question is should the weepholes / flashing be directly above the bay window roof? Or, should they be one (or more) courses up?
Any suggestions for dealing with this problem?
Thank you very much.
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The mason who bricked up your house was probably incompetent and you are just seeing one of many things wrong. Don't know where you live but if in NC, most houses are poorly bricked up. Ties need to be attached to studs, flashing needs to be above each window with weep holes and flashing and weepholes need to be install at the top of the foundation wall. See the technical notes at www.bia.org and see how brick is supposed to be done. When putting the weephole, if flashing was there, it was probably damaged when drilling the hole so it is now useless. One brick course will probably not absorbed enuf water to be an issue. I doubt the flashing there, if it is there, is any good.
"Big Arn" <none> wrote in message

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Thanks for your reply. The builder has been trying to fix the problem for a while (utilizing the roofing subcontractor), but I will go to bia.org and read up.
But, these bay windows are on the lower level, and both sides have two bedroom windows above them. So, the weepholes above the bays are a few courses below the bedroom window sills.
We're in Maryland, by the way.
On Sat, 09 Oct 2004 20:10:05 GMT, "Art"

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NC code now requires flashing and weepholes below window sills. The sills are your problem. They are sucking up water and dumping it in the wall above your bay.
"Big Arn" <none> wrote in message

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Our house has the flashing below sills, etc, but weepholes were forgotten. We have a Palladian also, above the door, where the weepholes were forgotten. They were added after the fact, being careful not to drill into the flashing, though .......
The sills are playing into this, though, as the roofer noticed that on two of them the brick was not sloping away from the window. As a temporary measure, silicone caulk was applied to any cracks, to see if that stops water from entering. But, I can still spray water on the joint where the bay roof hits the brick, bypassing the sills entirely, and have some water enter.
So the brick / roofline is still part of the problem. I just wish the weepholes were higher over the left bay window, so the roof and flashing could be attached to the brick properly. I am trying to find the "official" stance from bia.org about where the holes should be.
On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 02:54:15 GMT, "Art"

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The window sill pitch or lack thereof shows that the mason was incompetent. I doubt the flashing was installed properly and I guarantee the ties are not worth a darn. Get another mason out there to look at it. Look in the yellow pages for a mason who specializes in repairs. Ask him about cutting out all the brick that is sloped wrong, retrofit ties made by Durawal and any other things he sees as problems. Get an estimate for the fixes and give the bill to the builder. Sue him in small claims if he won't pain. The current mason is not worth a darn. You are just wasting your time with him. If you know the brick used, color of sand used and the mortar used a good mason can cut out brick and replace and you will never know.
"Big Arn" <none> wrote in message

home
extruded
the
installed
weepholes.
it
have
cement
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By the way, at 3 years you are probably running into the statute of limitations if you are considering taking action against the builder. Depends on which state you are in.
"Big Arn" <none> wrote in message

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On Sat, 09 Oct 2004 20:11:15 GMT, "Art"

Anyone sealing anything against brick with roofing cement is, by any standard, an idiot or a crook. Brick is by no means water proof, it needs to be properly flashed and weep holes installed. If this isn't done no remedial treatment is going to be really effective.
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It is really shameful that the brick industry doesn't do something about the poor quality masons out there. I for one will never get another brick house.

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It's funny,
But after buying this house, and learning way more than I ever wanted to about the various aspects of it (the brickwork, the tile flooring (another story entirely)), I notice too the scope of the problem.
In fact, when speaking with the various masons, roofers, etc. who look at the problem, most, at first blush, want to seal the weepholes. Most have no idea at all the of "science" behind any of it.
Regarding the roof / flashing of the bays being attached to the brick front by roofing cement, in speaking with the roofer, none of the builders in this area do it the proper way (by cutting into the morter, etc). All simply attach to the brick front with roofing cement. Our windows actually have step flashing on the angled part of the bay, above the actual angled part of the bay roof. Most houses I look at don't even have them.
In fact, many houses don't seem to have weepholes at all.
I'm starting to feel the same way as you do about brick houses -- especially any type of roof coming into that brick.
On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 02:55:51 GMT, "Art"

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I saw a house with a second story that is smaller than the first story so some brick sits on the roof. During repairs we discovered they left out lentils and did not attach the ones there properly to the framing. Stay away from brick is the bottom line unless you are there to supervise.
"Big Arn" <none> wrote in message

home
extruded
the
installed
weepholes.
it
have
cement
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After reading through your problem, it sounds as if several errors were made.
I think the permanent resolution to the problem will probably involve removing the brick veneer, at least over the problem windows. I suspect the roofing on the bays will need to come off also.
Brick work is not meant to be water proof, or even very water resistant. A well designed system has methods to deal with moisture if and when it does get through the veneer. The weep holes allow air into the cavity to dry out moisture. If they were properly flashed with Nervastral or copper, water can be directed out the weep holes. Flashing is a critical science.
The roofing can only function if the water is flashed out onto the top of the roofing. It sounds as if when you get driving rain, it can travel on top of the roofing and penetrate the building envelope. Counter flashing (the stuff installed in the saw cut) is more professional but does not stop your problem on its own, there still needs to be something to prevent water on top of the roof from being able to penetrate the envelope. Plastic roof cement, though not attractive, can serve this function, at least until if dries out.
If the water is penetrating the veneer above the bay window head, it is not being flashed out of the building envelope. Stopping the water from getting there will help, but not permanently cure. If it is the sill of the window above, caulk should provide temporary relief, but not a long term cure. The only permanent cure that I can envision will involve opening up the window heads on the outside to properly inspect and install the flashing correctly.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Keep the whole world singing . . . . DanG (remove the sevens) snipped-for-privacy@7cox.net
"Big Arn" <none> wrote in message

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I ran into a woman that had a 10k sq foot house which cost almost 2 million bucks. 4 sides brick. All defectively installed. She was in talks with the builder and had gotten an estimate to take down all the brick and put up new brick for $100k. I explained to her if she found a mason able to do it for $100k it will be just as defective as the current job.

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