Dodgy bay windows replacement...

[David Hearn]

Long story cut (slightly) short.

Around start of 2004 (give or take a few months) we had our bay windows (of 1930's semi) replaced by a local, recommended, family run double glazing company.

Ignoring usual delays, poor finish etc, main concern was removal of 2 aluminium square sections of reinforcement from lower sill (the short bit at 45 degrees on each side) during fitting "oh, we do this all the time, we can't cut the ends to fit otherwise!" said the installer. Warning bells. A minor, secondary issue is that one of the upstairs windows never (from the start, and fitted before lower bay done) closed properly - it stuck a bit, but with a bit of downward pressure shuts okay. Fitters were made aware of this, scratched their heads, "Hmm, seen this before" but in the end nothing done about it.

We have a 10 year (insurance backed) guarantee with them - although never had to use it yet, and also more importantly - haven't contacted them since they installed it.

The original old bay had been rotten and had dropped slightly (hence replacement) and installer re-plastered upstairs bay at the end. Problems appeared a few weeks/months/while after wards when I came to PVA the plaster (possibly a number of months knowing how long I take!) When it dried some cracks appeared along the edges of both sides of the bay. Marked 2 points either side of the crack and noted (next to crack in pencil) date and gap size. Did this every so often and sure enough, the cracks were getting wider. I think they got worse over the summer months, with little movement over the winter. At best guess, cracks are now maybe 3-4mm on each side. No sign of any problems downstairs, except slight bowing of lower sill with the 2 corners being the lowest part.

Since then we've had a little boy (wife was pregnant at the time of install) and what with everything, never found a round tuit to do anything about it.

I'm aware that we've left it a long time, possibly too long. We were contacted back in Feb/March this year as a courtesy call from the installers, to which my wife told them her mind (politely) and mentioned the cracks. Fitting manager (or someone) would call back next week - never heard from them.

What would people suggest we do about it now? I still have the pieces of reinforcement that were removed.

We should get them in to check it out and see what they said. I'd be happier getting their surveyor guy in to check, rather than a fitter - and I think things should be put in writing - however, can anyone suggest whether I've left things too long. I was initially monitoring the problem because I wasn't sure it wasn't just settling, rather than progressive - but then it just got longer and longer. Will having the pencil marks with widths + dates be a problem (or a benefit)?

So - what should be first steps? What should we insist on? I don't want to have to pay an independent surveyor if we don't have to, especially if ultimately they'll say it was installed badly, company will deny it, go to court who might say I left it too long!

Advice appreciated!

Thanks

David

[Cicero]

================================ You've got a 10 year guarantee - use it. Contact the company, remind them of their courtesy call and the concerns you expressed then and insist that they send their surveyor to inspect the windows. Make an issue of the marks you've made and make sure that they understand that the cracks are getting worse.

Since they took the trouble to make a courtesy call it's quite likely that they will at least make the effort to call and see the problem for themselves in case there is a serious problem which could damage their reputation.

Cic.

[David Hearn]

Great - thanks for that. I don't want to be an unreasonable customer (ie. going independent surveyor and small claims court) but I also am aware I've left it a while.

I think writing (politely) is best - rather than calling?

Thanks

D

[Cicero]

=============================== It's not unreasonable to ask a company to honour their guarantee, especially when it has about eight years left to run, because that's what guarantees are for.

I would favour a call followed by letter if necessary. Polite but firm and persistent seems to get the best results unless the sledge hammer of legal action becomes necessary.

Cic.

[Curious]

and cut even shorter .....

I hope for your sake that the defects you mention are covered by the guarantee. A typical DG 10 year guarantee often only covers the sealed double-glazed units, that they should remain sealed and not be subject to condensation of the collection of dust between the two panes of glass. Does your guarantee cover workmanship and problems with frames and surrounding masonry? If not, workmanship is covered by the Sale of Good Act, and if a trader is not willing to remedy poor work then the small claims court route is often the only answer.

[Phil L]

What do you mean by 'reinforcement'? - aluminium? - what size, length, shape etc, where were they situated before? - you said they were on the cills?

[Weatherlawyer]

My advice is to cut a lot more of the story out. If you gave the same speel to the person who answered the phone, no wonder there was no follow up. They'd probably switched off half way through.

[David Hearn]

+-----------+ / \ / \

The metal slotted inside the main cills section. The cills were made off-site, welded into the bay shape from 3 pieces. I believe there is a piece within the main long centre section, and 2 pieces in the 2 open ended pieces. The installer tapped on each open end and out slid the aluminium inserts. I have still have both (somewhere in the garage - certainly saw one the other day). I was told that as they needed to adjust the length of the side pieces, they cannot do it with the inserts and commonly throw them away.

The inserts are shaped like: +------+ x | | +- -+ y

With x being probably around 30mm? y is maybe 100mm or so. (Going from distant memory!) Can't remember the length, but I think it's 18" to 2' or so.

The load bearing corner pieces between the windows sit onto the cill and are probably meant to be supported by the inserts, rather than punch their way through. Although as they were square ended, they probably don't extend right into the corner?

Does that help?

Thanks

D

[David Hearn]

All work etc provided by them are covered by their guarantee I understand, but the insurance backing part of it (ie. if they go out of business) is only for sealed units I believe.

Thanks

D

[Phil L]

They are only reinforcements for the profile of the window cills, they cannot cause any kind of sagging in the frame itself

incorrect, the corner pieces are box steel sitting directly on the stonework/brickwork, these provide support for the upper bay

[Tony Bryer]

Ten year old page but possibly still relevant

[David Hearn]

Surely if the profile of the cill gets deformed, then whatever above it will lower.

The whole cill was pre-manufacturered and arrived on site as 1 piece. Externally, the cill was just extruded uPVC, cut to correct angle and welded together - any strengthening must be inside the cill corners. The 'poles' (really just wedge pieces with metal inside) sit directly on top of the uPVC cill. Cill site directly onto brickwork.

Whatever the construction, the cill is deformed/bowing, with the corners where the 'poles' go lower than the centre of the window.

Thanks

D