baseboards bled, but still no heat.

Page 1 of 2  
Ok guys I've been googling up the wazoo today to try to figure this out.
I have a two zone system, upper and lower. Gas furnace, one pump(Grundfos Type UP 15-42F), two valves(Honeywell V8048E), and baseboards.
here she is:
http://www.diezfamily.us/images/bs/AUT_2702.JPG
I thought I had frozen lines but when I bleed the zones water flows just fine. So I followed the procedures to purge each zone and started the system back up.
Well, I still only have heat to PART of the upstairs zone and no heat downstairs. I'm at a loss what to try next. The thermostats are working, the solenoids/valves are working, the aquastat is working, all manual valves are open, PSI is good(15). I can feel the pipes are nice and hot coming out of the furnace but they go into the concrete so it's hard to trace.
Actually, downstairs there is a little in a baseboard about 4 feet from the furnace, but that's it. And, to make things even more fun.. the first floor pipes are in the concrete floor so I can't get to them or trace their exact route! grrrrrrr. I think this one warm baseboard is the first unit off the furnace..
Can it be my pump is dying and can't get the whole system flowing? The thing is so quiet I can't tell if it's on or off.. It's a Grundfos Type UP 15-42F, by the way.
What else can I try???
Thanks,
T-- (thank God for gas fireplaces!)
Please reply to group.. I'm trying to remain spam-free.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Diezmon wrote:

How do you know the thermostats are working, you say you can't tell if it's off or on, (since it runs so quiet)
You claim partial heat upstairs, could it be full heat upstairs? and you are missing the downstairs heat rising?
I saw the picture, what a beast!
my 2cents
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
I know the thermostats are working because they properly turn on the system. I've checked and double checked everything with the voltmeter as well.

I couldn't tell if the pump was working, or that's what I meant by the 'thing' ;)
no full heat upstairs.. It's hard to explain but each zone has two physical loops. The upstairs: About 3 feet from the furnace it splits at a T to these two loops to the upstairs. Then, they return to another T on the return loop, just before the furnace. One loop heats up perfectly, the other loop stays cool even though both are fully open... very weird. I _think_ I eliminated the possibility of blockage, since when purging the water flows freely.
In the pic you can see the two loops for the downstairs(the taller two going into the concrete), and the return T just before returning to the furnace.
The downstairs baseboards, also a single zone with two physical loops, stays cold. But, those two pipes coming out of the furnace, into the floor, are HOT.
A beast? I was thinking it was pretty simple.. which is why I can't for the life of me, figure out the problem! ;)
Tim

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
If you are sure that the zone valves are opening, check that you have 120 volts at the pump, if so and the problem isn't air in the line, it's possible that the pump is jammed internally or just dead

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Yep, got 120 at the pump. My guestimate is that it IS the pump.. but how to find out?
Since the one loop always works fine, it's confusing the sh*t out of me :) The one loop that does work is located fairly vertically above the furnace, so I was wondering if it's just the heat rising up and through.. BUT the return is nice and hot too..
Tim

pump(Grundfos
working,
Type
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Tue, 06 Dec 2005 01:28:47 GMT, "Diezmon"

Disconnect the power to the pump, and see if anything changes. If it doesn't, the pump's not working.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Some pumps, you can look in between the pump and the motor, and see if the coupler is spinning around.
--

Christopher A. Young
Do good work.
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

With the solenoid valves open manually the pump may still not be called upon to start. You may only be feeling heat due to gravity fed convection of water in the pipes. With both valves open, the pump may not have the capacity to serve both zones, try closing one valve. Turn the thremostat up or down to see if you can hear a relay click in the heater or a difference in the pump noise or vibration.
Sure sounds like the pump is not doing the job. You can check to see if AC is sent to it and you should still be able to tell if it is running by feel or by peeking in a vent hole in its case.
Often the pump motor is connected to the pump impeller by a spring and arm mechanism. It absorbs startup shock when the motor kicks in but if the springs break, the motor will spin but the pump will be still.
The pump motor and pump (impeller) itself should be considered seperately when troubleshooting because either can fail independent of the other even though they look like one unit.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

This sounds like the most logical explanation. Especially if it has been sitting inactive over the summer things like that tend to pop up at startup time.
BTW, you don't have a furnace, you have a boiler. Furnaces heat air, boilers heat water. Using the wrong terminology will get nothing but disrespect if you go to the plumbing supply house for a part.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Thanks for the tip ;)
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
wrote:

Are you sure you know how to bleed the system PROPERLY? An air pocket could account for one zone working fine and another one being cold.
Commodore Joe Redcloud
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

could
Well, when I bled each zone, closing its shutoff valve and opening the purge valve, the water coming out was solid and flowing. I let it run for a while, and then bled them again. And yes, I had the supply running. :)
Tim
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
wrote:

Did you start at the highest and furthest from the boiler and work your way back? It makes a difference.
Commodore Joe Redcloud
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
yep, I sure did.

purge
way
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
I've never heard of shutting off a valve in order to bleed. I've always done it with the valve open.
--

Christopher A. Young
Do good work.
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
maybe we're getting our terms mixed up? I'm actually 'purging', which is done from the boiler area. There aren't any bleed valves in any of the radiators of the house.
You close the valve to centralize your purging to the zone you want to work on. so you're purging one zone at a time..
Tim

purge
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Tue, 06 Dec 2005 00:00:09 GMT, "Diezmon"

Either you have a bad zone valve or your expansion tank is bad.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
I always bleed without the supply on, fill to your pressure needed cold by the gauge and bleed with boiler off then boiler on, the pump working and a heated boiler will make a difference if its working. It sounds like the pump or zone valve
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

expansion tank is bad.

Tell me about this expansion tank thing. Am I ever supposed to empty it? It has a fitting on it for a garden hose.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Kathy wrote:

alt.hvac added (help us out here pros!)
Hey you guys, that was a lady asking, tell us some more!
I've already read quite a bit of misinformation in this thread, as I'm having the same problem with my Grundfos 15-42 F.
It's darn cold, and I don't know if the pipes are froze, or if there is a blockage, or and air lock, or the pump is just gone. There is no vent hole, I've got no backup valves, the flow control valves won't turn manually, some kind of ancient TACO crap, frozen solid.
The upstairs zone is going like gangbusters with the big B&G pump, but the downstairs Grundfos zone just quit, no flow, no hot pipes past the flow control valve, registers dead cold. The pump is running and I went out and got a little bleeder key, but where the hell do I start? I want to do it right.
If I have to take the pump out, I'll have to drain the system, so I may as well put in an air scoop, backup valves etc, but maybe it could be something simple, like that air tank.
Questions.
If one zone is working, do I forget the air tank?
How often do those old check valves freeze up? I notice there is a plug on the bottom, can I just remove that and clear it of any crap in there?
Help us out pros!
http://cosmic.lifeform.org
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Site Timeline

Related Threads

    HomeOwnersHub.com is a website for homeowners and building and maintenance pros. It is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.