Adjacent tiles lift after repair work. Is it malpractice?

[dgk]

I am going to dispute the credit card statement. I doubt that I'll take it to court.

[dgk]

Palm Beach County Florida.

[dgk]

Some of my neighbors suggested laminate rather than put down replacement tile. I think that's not a bad idea so I'm looking into that.

[Tommy Silva]

Me too! That's why I only use new products when they have the Mike Holmes seal of approval.

[trader_4]

If the CC approach doesn't work, I'd take it to small claims. You don't have anything to lose, except a small filing fee and I'd say a reasonable chance of gaining $900.

[trader_4]

I thought you said he injected adhesive under the adjacent tiles that came up? That's the assumption that everyone here is working on. If he didn't, then I'm at a loss as to how the adjacent ones could suddenly violently pop out.

[clare]

Not true - the Ditra has a "fabric" back that gets boded to the flor substrate with thinset. Then the waffle of the ditra gets filled with thinset, and the tile is back-buttered with thindet and applied to the filled ditra. Properlu installed, there is pretty close to a 100% bond between the tile and the ditrs - every bit as good a bond as you get with a notched trowel to concrete board.

Why cannot it be strong? You get full support on 50% of the tile area, evenly disributed - guaranteed. (assuming you can follow instructions)

It is NOT floating as a sheet. It is firmly bonded to the subfloor by a full contact thinset layer but with a small amount od "slip" built in to "decouple" the tile from the subfloor so any shift in the subfloor, within limits of course, is not transmitted to the tile, causing either the tile ot grout joint to fracture.

It was definitely not installed properly because a properly installed ditra-heat system has the heating caple or tubing 100% embedded in the thinset, which is thermally conductive and stable. Either the wrong thinst was used or it was not properly installed. Properly installed, a thermal imaging camera will show the location of the heating element when turned on, but within minutes of turning off the power the entire tile surface will show virtually the same temperature and finding the cable would be a guessing game.

It sure is true. I've seen many tile on concrete slabjobs where the tile is cracked because the slab cracked. You see it in shopping malls all the time. It happened in our old office building (second floor of re-enforced concrete structure) and it has also happened in the building we are in now (a single story concrete "pad" construction.

Tile may be waterproof, but grout most definitely is not. Nor is concrete.. Ditra and it's companion product Kerdi are used to make

100% waterproof tiuled shower enclosures, including the shower pan

It sure does.

It's been time tested in europe, where it has been used for forty years.

It was developed by a german master tile setter to solve problems that has arisen in the "old country" - where tiling is done by "masters" not untrained workmen, and particularly after the advent of single fired ceramic tile, which is about all you can buy today (double fired ceramics dissapeared with the first oil crisis)

It also is a lot thinner than concrete board, allowing you to install a 3/8" thick tile without raising the floor level by more than 1/2 inch. Try that with concrete board!!!

I installed ceramic tile and hardwood plank floor on the same surface with a match between the tile and hardwood that passes the quarter test, and it was both the first tile job and the first hardwood job I had attempted. The tile is in the front foyer over 3/4" plywood that had a 1/4" offset in the biddle of it, so by using 2 different thicknesses of Ditra I got a perfectly smooth and level surface, and a guarantee that any moisture tracked in will NOT penetrate the grout and get to the wooden subfloor.

A lot to be said for PEX - and for copper - but that's a different subject. Also a lot to be said for and against the newfangled yellow plastic coated stainless steel flex gas line. I'm "old school" and would not allow "gasfitters" to install it externally to connect my natural gas grille. I ended up doing it myself with iron pipe and calling in the gas company for an inspection when I was finished

I can (possibly) see it's use inside the building envelope, but certainly not exposed.

Copper pipe hasn't particularly stood the test of time either, but that "newfangled" copper pipe (as it was surely referred to back in the thirties and forties) has definitely been a great improvement over galvanized waterpipe, and CPVC drain pipe has definitely proven to be a better solution than either clay tile, cast iron, or Transite.

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[clare]

The small claims court system is in place for exactly this kind of dispute and costs you virtually nothing to pursue.

[clare]

He didn't apply any adhesive or sealer to the edges of, or below, the tiles that popped? The popped tiles were a whole tile away from the tiles he re-installed?

The general justification for not covering "damage to nearby tile" has to do with the possibility of damagina the tile next to an already damaged tile while removing it. "No guarantee we won't have to replace up to 8 adjacent tiles to remove the single damaged tile in the middle of your floor" makes sense. "no guarantee that undamaged tile may not jump off the floor or crack within hours or days of us finished the repair job" does not - unless they know they are doing something wrong that has caused that kind of damage in the past.

[clare]

Whatever you do, don't put down "cheap" laminate and expect it to stand up to heavy use or any exposure to moisture. I sure would not put laminate directly onto a concrete slab in a humid location like Palm Beach.

[clare]

Anf Mike uses Schuter system products, including Ditra very extensively in his projects.

[Mayayana]

| >. The floor as a sheet can't be very | >strong, given the waffle design | | Why cannot it be strong? You get full support on 50% of the tile area, | evenly disributed - guaranteed. (assuming you can follow | instructions)

And what about the other 50%? It sounds like the finished product would have a great deal of flex, since the top of the waffles will have just a thin layer of thinset, and the sheet itself is very flexible.

| It is NOT floating as a sheet. It is firmly bonded to the subfloor by | a full contact thinset layer but with a small amount od "slip" built | in to "decouple" the tile from the subfloor so any shift in the | subfloor, within limits of course, is not transmitted to the tile, | causing either the tile ot grout joint to fracture.

That doesn't make sense. I though the selling point was that it floats. It can't be glued down and also "decoupled". A small amount of slip built in? Built in to what? Either it's stuck down with thinset or it isn't. Concrete board, on the other hand, does float. Your description doesn't make any sense to me. You're describing a dense foam sheet preventing cracks in grout and tile better than a sheet of concrete board. (And as I said, the one job I've seen is already showing problems in less than 6 months.)

| > The selling points mentioned on that page are | >not convincing. "Even if your house shifts, your | >tiles won't". They're implying that a mortar bed | >or thinset on concrete board install will crack, which | >is not true. | | It sure is true. I've seen many tile on concrete slabjobs where the | tile is cracked because the slab cracked. You see it in shopping malls | all the time. It happened in our old office building (second floor of | re-enforced concrete structure) and it has also happened in the | building we are in now (a single story concrete "pad" construction. |

I'm not talking about concrete slab. That's a different situation. I'm talking about wood construction houses, with plywood subfloor, where either a mortar bed or concrete board are used. The OP does have a concrete slab, but he hasn't mentioned anything about cracks. The trouble he's having is with tiles coming up.

| > They also make a claim about being | >waterproof. Waterproof is a main feature of tile. | | Tile may be waterproof, but grout most definitely is not.

Next time you step out of the shower, let yourself drip a puddle and see if it runs down between the tiles, soaking into the grout.

[clare]

You have obviously never used the product.

Not only have youi never used it you have not downloaded the installation instructions to see how it is used.

Not onlky jhave you never used it or read the instructions, you have obviously never even laid eyes on the product.

It does? It is fastened down by both nails or screws AND thinset., with all joints taped and filled with thinset., and all joints need to be properly staggered etc.

It is not a foam product - as I said you've never seen the stuff - and if it is failing in 6 months, it was not properly installed. If you used concrete board the way you seem to think it is used it will fail as well - every bit as soon.

Ditra works even better on wood subfloors, with even more advantages over cement board (which you would NOT use on a concrete slab, generally speeking)

It definitely penetrates grout. That's why you need to seal grout. That's why unsealed grout discolors and mildews. ALL concrete products are pourous and none are waterproof. They may be water resistant, butif you totally dehidrate a concrete product it turns back to powder.

Why else do you need a water resistant or waterproof backer for tile shower enclosures? Put tile on drywall, and the drywall turns to mud.

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[DerbyDad03]

Please don't include me in the "everyone here" assumption. I *never* though t that the contractor (purposely) injected adhesive under the adjacent tiles. That is the reason I have been saying that this may not be a warranty issue.

The warranty would cover the tiles he actually worked on and the contract e xclusion would protect the contractor from being responsible for damage to nearby tiles. Now, I don't neccesarily feel that the "protection" clause is valid and that's the part I think that he should be fighting.

[Terry Coombs]

I think you've made a wise choice . Not only did he overcharge you , but IMO he deliberately caused other problems to try to bend you over some more . I've ran home repair/flooring install/light construction businesses in the past , and never had to resort to this type of chicanery to make a decent living . Quality work at a reasonable price will have people calling you , instead of screwing every one and never getting a call back . Some of my former customers still call me , even though I've retired and moved away .

[dadiOH]

That depends upon where you live. In Florida, small claims handles up to a $5000 claim the filing fee for which is $500.

[Ed Pawlowski]

The above is the reason I have epoxy grout in the bathrooms. Now there are urethane grouts that can even be used outdoors or submerged.

[Ed Pawlowski]

Wow, that is not so small. In CT it is $90 for a claim, $90 for a counter claim. Of course, appeal to the Supreme Court is $250.

[trader_4]

ght that the contractor

n I have been saying that

He did say this:

"The guys reset the tiles, using six of the spares to replace some of the others that had cracked or been nicked over time. They injected adhesive between some other tiles to make sure that they didn't come up."

If he didn't inject something under the tiles that suddenly and violently popped up the next day, IDK what could account for that happening.

exclusion would protect the contractor from being responsible for damage t o nearby tiles. Now, I don't neccesarily feel that the "protection" clause is >valid and that's the part I think that he should be fighting.

I agree that the exclusion clause wouldn't count if he can show that the contractor didn't know what he was doing, used the wrong adhesive, etc. If he can show that, then it's gross negligence, whether he can prove it or not, IDK.

[trader_4]

Not what I'm seeing.

For less than $100, it's $50

100 - 500, $85 500 - 2500, $175 2500 - 5000 $500

At least for that FL county. It's still hefty compared to every other state I've seen. To have to risk another $175 to recover $500, doesn't make much sense to me.