220V dryer sparked on startup (3 wire) What to test?

Page 12 of 16  
wrote:

Not even power lines.
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After further review, you are correct.
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On Sunday, November 17, 2013 1:31:25 PM UTC-5, Nightcrawler® wrote:

Thank you. Good to see we convinced someone.
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On 11-16-2013, 11:34, snipped-for-privacy@attt.bizz wrote:

The reference is neutral. Each "hot" is 180º from the other when the correct reference is used.
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Wes Groleau

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On Sat, 16 Nov 2013 13:50:57 -0500, Wes Groleau

No, it's not. Words mean things. Phase has a particular meaning and a phase shift and inversion are different things. In degenerate cases they may look the same but they're not. Call things by their proper names and communication gets easier. Or not, spread lies. Your choice.
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On Saturday, November 16, 2013 1:59:09 PM UTC-5, snipped-for-privacy@attt.bizz wrote:

es

he

Yes and in electrical engineering, the most widely used context of "phase" is simply the relationship of one cyclical waveform to another. Hence, the two dryer hot legs are in fact 180 deg out of phase with each other. Look at them on a scope. What do you see?
and

From the electron's perspective, a mathematical perspective, a physics perspective, what exactly is the difference between saying two signals, waveforms, circuit points, etc are 180 deg out of phase or that one is the inversion of the other?
In degenerate cases

He is calling things by their proper name. You're insisting that a 180 def phase difference of two waveforms must be called "opposite" and not a 180 deg phase difference.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase_(waves)
Phase difference is the difference, expressed in electrical degrees or time , between two waves having the same frequency and referenced to the same po int in time.[1] Two oscillators that have the same frequency and no phase d ifference are said to be in phase. Two oscillators that have the same frequ ency and different phases have a phase difference, and the oscillators are said to be out of phase with each other. The amount by which such oscillato rs are out of phase with each other can be expressed in degrees from 0 to 360°, or in radians from 0 to 2π. If the phase difference is 180 degrees (π radians), then the two oscillators are said to be in antiphase.
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On Sat, 16 Nov 2013 16:17:34 -0800 (PST), " snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net"

Get a refund. You got screwed.
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On Sunday, November 17, 2013 11:30:03 AM UTC-5, snipped-for-privacy@attt.bizz wrote:

grees

he

Are you as sure of that as were about it being illegal for an employer to help pay for employees to buy Obamacare policies on the exchanges? Then too, you started with the insults, the one word non-answers, and of course you were totally wrong.
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On Sun, 17 Nov 2013 09:41:58 -0800 (PST), " snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net"

You were illiterate then and you're still illiterate. Stupid people are stupid their entire life. Go figure.
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On 11/17/2013 5:58 PM, snipped-for-privacy@attt.bizz wrote:

Well, this one was only 121 lines. Getting better.
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On Sat, 16 Nov 2013 13:50:57 -0500, Wes Groleau wrote:

I had posted a detailed answer but it got lost since aioe is eating up my posts, so, I'll reply again that I think they're 120 degrees out of phase.
Here's why I think that.
The 3 wires on the street distribution line are all hot wires. They come from a transformer (a whole series of them) which is wired with three coils. Hence, they're each 120 degrees out of phase with each other (Y or delta coils).
Then you take *two* of those hot wires, and send them into your house. Those two are *still* 120 degrees out of phase (AFAIK).
You stick a neutral wire in between (which is just a wire to ground at the poles) and now you have either two 120 volt circuits, or one three-wire 240 volt circuit.
The key point is that they're 120 degrees out of phase. I don't remember the math, but that knocks the RMS (or whatever it's called) voltage to something like 208 volts (but I don't remember the exact equation).
Anyway, since they're *not* 180 degrees out of phase, there will be current in the neutral. Actually, I guess if the two hot wires are not used for anything else, i.e., if they're a *dedicated* circuit, I'm not sure if any current still goes into the neutral.
Does anyone know if dryers are dedicated circuits? If so, is there any current going into the neutral?
Note: If they were *not* dedicated circuits, then for sure there could easily be current in the neutral since the loads wouldn't be balanced all the time.
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As an aside, I would trace that wire and find out where it goes. Odds are that it is supposed to be terminated to the center terminal.
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On Saturday, November 16, 2013 3:01:43 PM UTC-5, Danny D'Amico wrote:


I replied to your original post explaining why you're wrong.

That is where you're going wrong. You don't take two of the three phase wires, you take ONE of them and put it through a center pole step-down transformer. That gives you two hots and a center connection. Between either hot and the center connection you have 120V. Between the two hots you have 240V. The center tap becomes the neutral. If you look at the waveforms of the two hots relative to the neutral, they are 180 deg opposite each other.

re

Per the above, all that is wrong.

Yes, at least every one I've ever seen.

Again, as others have pointed out, the unbalanced portion of the load current, which might be lights, timer, etc. is flowing in the neutral

If a neutral is required for an appliance, then it should always be assumed that current is flowing in it.
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On Sat, 16 Nov 2013 16:27:09 -0800, snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net wrote:

I'm perfectly happy to be wrong, as long as I can figure out from the correction what the right answer is.

Hmmm... Ok. I did not realize that you're only getting *one* of the three hot wires from the distribution pole. If it helps, here is a picture of what is coming into my house from underground, from the transformer:
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2886/10915925156_0e21cf1404_o.gif
I had to break a seal to open that separate panel cover, so I guess they don't want us messing around with these wires; but it seems if I had an oscilloscope, I would check the phase difference between the two thicker non-striped wires.
I checked the voltage with my flukemeter which showed they were each 120 volts ac with respect to the neutral.
But, you're saying *those* two wires are 180 degrees out of phase with each other, right?
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On Mon, 18 Nov 2013 01:28:53 +0000 (UTC), Danny D'Amico

Be careful. You might make a lot of smoke. ...if you're lucky.

...and 240V between them.

They're the opposite. That's the only way there could be 120V from each to ground and 240V between them. If there were less, they couldn't be opposite. There can't be more.
Imagine a circle of radius 120 units. From the center to any point on the circle it's 120 units. From one side of the circle to a point directly opposite is 240 units. Between any other two points it's something less than 120 units (never more).
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On Sunday, November 17, 2013 9:42:14 PM UTC-5, snipped-for-privacy@attt.bizz wrote:

Sigh. Some engineer. Engineers talk in terms of the phase relationship of waveforms. KRW only understands "opposite"

And more obfuscation thrown in for good measure.
You could listen to KRW. Or you can listen to the IEEE (Institute of Electrical and Electronic Engineers) Here's a paper from the IEEE that specifically addresses the exact issue:
http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/articleDetails.jsp?reload=true&arnumber4520128
"Distribution engineers have treated the standard "singlephase" distributio n transformer connection as single phase because from the primary side of t he transformer these connections are single phase and in the case of standa rd rural distribution single phase line to ground. However, with the advent of detailed circuit modeling we are beginning to see distribution modeling and analysis being accomplished past the transformer to the secondary. Whi ch now brings into focus the reality that standard 120/240 secondary system s are not single phase line to ground systems, instead they are three wire systems with two phases and one ground wires. Further, the standard 120/240 secondary is different from the two phase primary system in that the secon dary phases are separated by 180 degrees instead of three phases separated by 120 degrees. What all of this means is that analysis software and method s must now deal with an electrical system requiring a different set of algo rithms than those used to model and analyze the primary system. This paper will describe the modeling and analysis of the single-phase center tap tran sformer serving 120 Volt and 240 Volt single-phase loads from a three-wire secondary."
From the above, here's the essential, irrefutable point:
"Which now brings into focus the reality that standard 120/240 secondary sy stems are not single phase line to ground systems, instead they are three w ire systems with two phases and one ground wires."
That's from a paper published by the peer reviewed IEEE and delivered at a conference of power engineers, not from the flapping gums of KRW.
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On Mon, 18 Nov 2013 05:48:03 -0800 (PST), " snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net"

Not when there isn't one. You're an illiterate liar, but that's nothing new to anyone here, either. If there is a phase relationship there is one. If it's zero, but opposite direction, that's what it is. I'm sorry of you flunked CrackerJax-U EE-101. Get a refund.

You're a liar, Trader, but that's nothing new.
<...>
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On Monday, November 18, 2013 1:36:49 PM UTC-5, snipped-for-privacy@attt.bizz wrote:

h

Far from it. Here, once again, from an IEEE paper. You do know the IEEE, (Institute of Electrical and Electronic Engineers). Most widely respected EE organization in the country. The paper was presented at a conference of power industry engineers.
http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/articleDetails.jsp?reload=true&arnumber4520128
Distribution engineers have treated the standard "singlephase" distribution transformer connection as single phase because from the primary side of th e transformer these connections are single phase and in the case of standar d rural distribution single phase line to ground. However, with the advent of detailed circuit modeling we are beginning to see distribution modeling and analysis being accomplished past the transformer to the secondary. Whic h now brings into focus the reality that standard 120/240 secondary systems are not single phase line to ground systems, instead they are three wire s ystems with two phases and one ground wires. Further, the standard 120/240 secondary is different from the two phase primary system in that the second ary phases are separated by 180 degrees instead of three phases separated b y 120 degrees."
Read the last two sentences. Who's the fool now?

:

How nice. krw claims he addresses every claim I've made. Which of course is a lie, because right here you just cut out the whole section where I cite the IEEE, which cuts to the core of the whole discussion. It shows I'm right, it's very specific, clear and to the point and it was presented at an IEEE conference for power engineeers. So, of course you can't address it, it's irrefutable. Instead you hurl the usual insults.
In case you missed it, I posted it again, just for you. But more so others can see who's right and who the real liar is here.
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On Monday, November 18, 2013 1:36:49 PM UTC-5, snipped-for-privacy@attt.bizz wrote:

h

:

Keep calling me a liar, while cutting out the spot on reference I provided from the IEEE from a paper presented at an engineering conference on power. No comment on that, because it's irrefutable that their terminology and opinon on the exact question at hand is the same as mine. And at this point, it appears everyone else too, but you....
http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/articleDetails.jsp?reload=true&arnumber4520128
" Distribution engineers have treated the standard "singlephase" distributi on transformer connection as single phase because from the primary side of the transformer these connections are single phase and in the case of stand ard rural distribution single phase line to ground. However, with the adven t of detailed circuit modeling we are beginning to see distribution modelin g and analysis being accomplished past the transformer to the secondary. Wh ich now brings into focus the reality that standard 120/240 secondary syste ms are not single phase line to ground systems, instead they are three wire systems with two phases and one ground wires. Further, the standard 120/24 0 secondary is different from the two phase primary system in that the seco ndary phases are separated by 180 degrees instead of three phases separated by 120 degrees. "
Pay special attention to the one sentence:
"Which now brings into focus the reality that standard 120/240 secondary sy stems are not single phase line to ground systems, instead they are three w ire systems with two phases and one ground wires. "
Feel free to admit at any time that you were wrong. Or keep cursing in the darkness, your choice.
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On 11/19/2013 8:27 AM, snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net wrote:

Anyone but me expect this thread to make the list?
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