125v vs. 117v revisited

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Are you referring to the two different brands of circuit breakers?
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On 12/29/2015 10:54 AM, John G wrote:

No GFCI's and I suspect there may be some need for them in a "shop" (without knowing what else is in the building).
Two 20A breakers are unused -- both on the same leg (a likely place to suspect a sizeable imbalance)
The bottom right two-pole breaker feeds a 220V circuit wired black/white (i.e., the safety "ground" acting as neutral for any appliance fed from that branch)
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On Tue, 29 Dec 2015 12:01:35 -0700, Don Y

there IS no neutral.
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On 12/29/2015 1:18 PM, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:

In either case, the white should be "taped black" in the panel and at the other end(s) of the branch circuit.
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On Tue, 29 Dec 2015 13:57:55 -0700, Don Y

circuits, it virtually never is - particularly if they are using coloured jacket cabling
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On Tue, 29 Dec 2015 13:57:55 -0700, Don Y

A fairly recent change. (at least for old guys like me)
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On Tuesday, December 29, 2015 at 2:01:18 PM UTC-5, Don Y wrote:

It's actually the reverse. The neutral also serves as a ground for old circuits installed in the days when it was permitted, prior to a separate ground being required. A neutral was always required to support a circuit with both 240V and 120V loads, it can't physically work without it. The concept of requiring grounds came later.
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On Tue, 29 Dec 2015 14:57:18 -0800 (PST), trader_4

Actually only for ranges and clothes dryers for the 40 years or so that this exception existed but it was still never legal from a sub panel ... for exactly the reason we are discussing. The neutral is 5 or 6 volts above ground. Do you really want to be laying on a concrete slab with a drill that is putting 5 volts AC in your sweaty hands? That is why I would really want to see a ground rod or two. It is going to be a tingle voltage that may or may not trip the GFCI ... if he had any.
Then we could open the "other metallic path" thing if we are still using the old 3 wire feeder exception.
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On Tuesday, December 29, 2015 at 6:52:23 PM UTC-5, snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

I agree. My point was that on even those old circuits, it was the neutral that was the essential component of supplying 240/120V. And when the neutral is shared, it's the ground that's sharing the neutral, not the other way around. The circuit could work with no ground. It can't work with no neutral.
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On Tue, 29 Dec 2015 12:01:35 -0700, Don Y

There is plenty of 240v shop equipment that doesn't use a neutral.
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On 12/29/2015 4:41 PM, snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

You don't know that looking *in* the panel. Put a cover on the terminal Jbox (because you are no longer using that piece of gear) and the next guy coming along opens it to find white (untaped), black and copper. Do you think he's going to assume the white is really a hot and this is a 220V feed? Or, that it's yet another 110V, 20A circuit?
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On Tue, 29 Dec 2015 16:53:34 -0700, Don Y

240 volt specific outlet you ALWAYS disconnect it at the breaker. That way there is no chance of ambiguity. A good idea on any "dedicated" circuit too. If there is nothing else on the circuit don't just wire-nut it off in the jbox. Either disconnect, or better yet label and lock out the breaker involved.
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On Tuesday, December 29, 2015 at 9:32:49 PM UTC-5, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:

It would seem to me that any time your decommission any circuit, you would disconnect it at the breaker.

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On Tue, 29 Dec 2015 09:54:59 -0800 (PST), John G

I was willing to give him a huss on that. They are probably "classified" for that panel.
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On 12/27/2015 10:32 PM, IGot2P wrote:

Do the *easy* things, first. - measure at the *main* panel - measure at the subpanel (already done) - open the disconnect at the subpanel and remeasure at the main panel Assuming this isolates the problem to the subpanel: - remove individual loads from the subpanel (open breakers) and measure
Take good notes.
You should be able to diagnose the problem just from these observations.
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Don Y has brought this to us :

It has taken an unbelievable amount of drivel and misinformation to get down to this simple list of things to do to isolate the problem. :-?
--
John G Sydney.

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On 12/28/2015 4:04 PM, John G wrote:

I am basically lazy. :> As I think most folks are. I would rather do the easy things -- take data and THINK about the problem -- than run around "try this", etc.
Occam's Razor: chances are, it's something in the subpanel/workshop and NOT something with the utility -- *or* the main panel (not counting the subpanel tie-in).
Eliminate the workshop and see if the problem persists. If not, tells you the problem is *related* to the workshop (though may still manifest in something else).
Far better to be able to tell an electrician or the utility: "I did this and this is what I saw" than to just throw a bunch of unrelated observations at them ("Well, did you try *this*?" "No, but I tried something (totally unrelated)!")
We had a neighbor around the corner have his metercenter catch fire! Faulty connection on one of the mains and it just arced it's way into flames. Likewise, had a vault "explode" (coincidentally, near that same home!).
I.e., when things start deviating from normal by too much, Bad Things happen. "You have been warned" ;-)
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of the AC. Then with almost everything cut off, plug in a large load such as a bathroom heat or hair dryer to one side. If the unloaded side changes voltage it is almost sure to be a neutral problem somewhere.
YOu can do this in the workshop, then move to the house. If workshop and not house, it is probably your problem, if also at the house and on the main wires, if the neutral is not loose at the box, probably the power company problem
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On Mon, 28 Dec 2015 18:51:14 -0500, "Ralph Mowery"

Generally speaking, checking at the service disconnect is about as far as you can go because everything on the line side of that is sealed by the PoCo. They will generally fix anything on that side for free, just to keep you out of the metering equipment. Obviously if they determine it is on the line side of the service point (typically the crimps on the drop or the transformer connection on a service lateral), it is their baby anyway.
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On 12/28/2015 5:56 PM, snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

the outlets in the house and they all read in the 122v range. I then opened the house breaker box and both sides coming in read 122.7v. I also checked the voltage coming out of the breaker that goes to the shop and they also read 122.7. I also tightened all three wires down that go to the shop (actually none were loose). I THINK that this tells me that the problem is in the shop but we are currently in the middle of a rain/sleet/snow storm here in the Midwest so I am no going back out to the shop to look in that box again tonight. In fact, we were totally without power part of this afternoon...the ice probably took a limb down over a line.
Thanks for all of the help and let me know if you agree that the problem is in the shop.
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