1.28 GPF Toilet - Must hold handle down

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On Wed, 15 Sep 2010 21:23:51 -0700 (PDT), "hr(bob) snipped-for-privacy@att.net"

Clues are useless for the OP. They just confuse and confound him.
To fix this problem, someone will have to come to his house and write
DUAL FLUSH TOILET with a Sharpie pen in really big block letters on top of the toilet where he can see it. Maybe set up a spot light on it, just to be sure he sees it.
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Because I would be man enough to admit it if I were wrong, I decided to call the manufacturer again and be very specific with my wording. That way there will be no confusion as to whether or not you should come over and write DUAL FLUSH TOILET on my fixture. I was not this specific in my first call - I merely asked if I needed to hold the handle down for a second or two to get a full flush and that is exactly what the rep responded to.
Feel free to try this exercise yourself. All of the information you need is included below.
Dialing: 800-442-1902 Ring. Ring. - Good Morning. Thank you for calling American Standard. My name is Ashley. How may I help you? - Me: I have a couple of questions about my toilet. May I give you the model number? - Ashley: Yes, please. - Me: 2447.128.020 - Ashley: When did you purchase this toilet? - Me: Last Saturday. - Ashley. Thank you. What is your question? - Me: Is that model considered a Dual Flush toilet? - Ashley: No, it is not. - Me: Why do I get a partial flush if I hold the handle down briefly, but a full flush if I hold the handle down for a couple of seconds? - Ashely: The 3 inch flush valve requires that you hold the handle down a little bit longer for all the water to leave the tank. If you don't, the flapper closes before you get a full flush. But, no sir, it is not a Dual Flush model. We do have Dual Flush models if you are interested. - Me: No, but thank you very much, Ashley. Have a nice day. - Ashely: Thank you for calling American Standard.
I don't know what else to say...oh wait, yes I do!
On a dual flush toilet, the handle is designed differently than a single flush toilet. Whether it be 2 push buttons on the top, a horizontal handle that gets lifted up for partial flushes and pushed down for full or a vertical handle that get moved either clockwise or counter-clockwise depending on which flush you want.
In addition, the innards are specifically designed so that the handle or button acts differently upon it depending on which way it is moved or which button is pushed. You can open a dual flush toilet and *see* the difference since it designed to be controlled by 2 separate triggering actions.
Model number 2447.128.020 has nothing more than a standard handle, an oversized flapper, an overflow tube and your basic fill valve with float. It is the exact same configuration that has been used in standard, single flush toilets for decades.
I know of no Dual Flush toilet that uses the standard flapper and float valve and just lets the flapper close "early" if you don't hold the handle long enough.
You can write Dual Flush on my toilet if you want, but it'll just serve as a reminder of how wrong you are.
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On Thu, 16 Sep 2010 06:42:37 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03

Dual Flush as a label merely means that there are two flush modes. One is a smaller and less forceful flush, and addtional action is required to get a "full" flush. Regardless of how your toilet is labeled, that is exactly what your toilet does, dopey.
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How far are you willing stretch logic so that you don't have to admit you are wrong?
I said I would have been willing to admit I was wrong had my specific questions been answer differently. Why can't you?
Are you saying that any toilet with a worn flapper that closes incorrectly would suddenly be considered a "dual flush" toilet - as defined by the industry?
By your logic, why wouldn't AS market this model as a dual flush - as opposed to specifically saying that it isn't - and raise the price based on that feature?
My Dad has a full size old fashion toilet from back in the 60's. For years it required the user to hold the handle down to get a full flush. If you didn't, the flapper closed too early for all the water to leave the tank. Did he have the first ever "dual flush" model? By your logic, yes. By anyone who has ever replaced or adjusted the innards of a toilet, no.
Google "dual flush" and you'll find that every model of dual flush toilet specifically mentions the "two flush modes" in question. Google my model and you'll find that there is no mention of that feature or capability.
Drop it. (I know you can't, so I will.)
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On Thu, 16 Sep 2010 07:52:59 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03

So, now you are claiming that your new toilet has an old, worn flapper in it? Please elaborate.

Maybe they have a reason. Or maybe the marketing department simply screwed up.

There is a severe conflict in the above that renders it absurd. Actually, there are several conflicts. One of them, is clearly fatal.

You (and your toilet) shall remain full of it.
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wrote:

Red,
Were your toilets designated as Dual Flush models?
As I pointed to our furry friend Fillet a bit earlier, the AS toilet I installed is not designated as such nor is there anything on their website, in the manual that came with my toilet or on the placard in the store indicating a Dual Flush feature of my model.
AS does indeed carry a line of FloWise Dual Flush toilets with the flush button on top, but that is a different product line than the Cadet 3 flush system and the standard handle of my toilet. The AS Dual Flush models all seem to use 1.6/0.8 GPF and are designated as Dual Flush. I don't see any 1.28 GPF Dual Flush models on their site.
When I called AS Customer Service and asked them if I had to hold the handle down for a second or 2 to flush it, he said yes and made no mention of Dual Flush or of liquids vs. solids.
I gotta stand by my claim that I do not have a Dual Flush toilet, I merely have a toilet where the flap closes too early if you don't hold the handle down. I did find a couple of reviews on the web where the owners made mention of the same issue. It may indeed *act* like Dual Flush, but that doesn't make it a Dual Flush model by design.
Yea we got that ALREADY...I have a new AS Cadet(40 bucks at HD) that operates the same way..Their Customer Service answered your question as did several others on here but you are to thick headed to believe it..If it bugs you that much , rip it out and return it and get one with the little sticker that says Dual Flush...
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I "believe" everyone here except the one that suggested I "read the instructions" and called me a "mistaken clown".
My question to Red was just that - a question.
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On Wed, 15 Sep 2010 15:49:49 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03

Okay, Cleopatra!
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No, not designated as such. However as you state, the operation of the large flush valve makes it *act* like a dual flush system. That's normal operation, not a fault. Remember that this total design was from the Japanese where saving water is a way of life. They did not want the tank to empty with each flush unless necessary. Some American designs took a different approach and called theirs dual flush. No matter what you do or don't call it, if it acts, walks, sounds like a duck..........
Red
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re: "Remember that this total design was from the Japanese where saving water is a way of life."
Some say it was the Australians, but let's not bicker on that point:
http://www.biotechnology-innovation.com.au/innovations/instruments/flush_technology.html
re: "If it acts, walks, sounds like a duck..."
Don't we usually end that line with "it's a duck?" ;-)
However, in the case of my toilet, not only don't I call it a duck, the manufacturer doesn't call it a duck and the EPA doesn't call it a duck:
Choose Toilets under Product Category and enter 2447.128 in the Model Number search field at this site:
http://www.epa.gov/watersense/product_search.html
It's listed as a Single Flush unit.
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Do they have ducks, in Australia?
"If it walks like a Koala, and talks like a Koala......"
--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
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Straying from the thread some but sortta On Subject...
Just put in one of the AS dual flush jobs as part of an in-house bath redo.
    http://tinyurl.com/28xvuov
Not bad. Nobody seems to complain. I'm too hardened and old school so it's only #1 for me. For that I like it.
Anyway, in the older toilet I installed a Hydroright I picked up at Costco (think Borg has them too). Less than $20.
    http://www.gomjsi.com/products/overview/hydroright
This thing I like. Get the full flush of old faithful for #2 and low flush for liquids. Had to replace the ballcock to a Fluidmaster since the ball interfered with operation. They did mention this may happen.
Maybe later "the rest story." as Paul Harvy would say.
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responding to http://www.homeownershub.com/maintenance/1-28-GPF-Toilet-Must-hold-handle-down-507850-.htm toilet guy wrote:
DerbyDad03 wrote:

------------------------------------- DerbyDad03 wrote:

------------------------------------- Dear DerbyDad You should not have to hold down the handle. Once the flush valve opens sufficiently it will stay up until the correct 1.28 gallons discharges from the tank. Please look inside the tank. Check the chain going from the trip lever arm to the flush valve. It should be a little loose, but not too loose. The issue you describe usually happens if the chain is incorrectly attached to the wrong bead and is too loose. Then the trip lever won't lift the flush valve flapper sufficiently so that it stays buoyant. The fix is simple--unhook the bead chain from the connector and move it up a couple beads so that the chain is not so loose. You should now get the correct amount of water without holding down the trip lever.
Incidentally, if the chain has the correct tautness already, are you sure you are not getting the correct flush already without holding down the trip lever? These toilets flush extremely quickly. They empty the correct amount from the tank in about 1 second, and the complete flush only takes about 4 to 5 seconds. They work because the flush is about half the time of an older toilet, so the force is double--which allows it to work with less water.
This doubling of the force of the water is also the answer to your second question--about the possibility of plugging the drain pipes. All the new American Standard high efficiency toilets (HET) are tested against the ASME drain line carry out standard of 40 feet minimum, and they all exceed the standard. In other words, the standard says that if a toilet moves a standard medium (in the case of this test it is 100 polypropylene balls)a minimum of 40 feet down a sewer pipe set up correctly, it won't plug the pipe. All the American Standard HET toilets move the test medium a minimum of 56 feet. So don't worry, there's no problem!
If you have additional questions, don't hesitate to contact American Standard Customer Care at 1-800-442-1902
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On Sep 20, 11:47am, friedbergerm_at_americanstandard_dot snipped-for-privacy@foo.com (toilet guy) wrote:

re: "If you have additional questions, don't hesitate to contact American Standard Customer Care at 1-800-442-1902"
Thank you for your response but I have to ask:
Did you read the part of the post that you responded to where I said the following?
"I called American Standard and they said that that's how they work. Yes, you have to hold the handle down to get the full flush."
Did you read one of my followup's where I detailed my *second* conversation with American Standard Customer Care and was told once again that "Yes, you have to hold the handle down to get the full flush" and they gave the reason as the operation of the 3" flapper?
While I appreciate that you provided the number for American Standard Customer Care, I really don't see any sense in calling them a third time. I really doubt I'll get a different answer.
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