Rudbeckia vs Echinacea

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I'm looking at R.Goldsturm and E.purpurea
Apart from the obvious colour choice does anyone know of a good reason to pick one over the other? Is one better against slugs or disease, or require less water etc...
Which one is easier to grow?
Cheers
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Grew rudbeckia for 10 years. Seemed to be bulletproof. My ex wife planted some Echinacea 3 years ago. Appears to ALSO be bulletproof.
Why not plant both? You know what lawn is for, right? It's to provide you with a source of exercise as you hack away grass to make more flower beds.

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snipped-for-privacy@mps.co.uk says...

I've only grown Goldsturm. I can report that it grows well, has no diseases in our garden, and gradually spreads. I don't know how long it lives, but since it does seem to propagate I don't care. Ours is about 5 years old.
Also it blooms for 2-3 months.
--
Where ARE those Iraqi WMDs?

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snipped-for-privacy@mps.co.uk (Team_Steve) wrote:

They used to be categorized as the same genus & are in general so much alike in their requirements that SIZE and COLOR are the only things to weigh in making an aesthetic choice for a dryish sun-garden. There are semi-dwarf & dwarf echinaceas ('Ruby Star' & 'Kim's Knee-high' being most common offerings, but even smaller ones can be had from specialists), plus "Goldsturm" & the white echinacea are also smallish, compared to regular large purple echinaceas
As my gardens are relative small in size, I've avoided the full-sized echinaceas. If you have a larger garden that needs tall big clumping flowery perennials, then the full-size echinacea varieties might be more desirable. They're across the board among the easiest of easy perennials to grow, though if you start from veritable seedlings they might be a little sensitive to extremes during their first two summers, but eventually are impervious to anything except too much wetness.
-paghat the ratgirl
--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
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Would brown, crispy leaves be a sign of too much wetness? I thought mine weren't getting enough water, maybe they're getting too much?
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snipped-for-privacy@aol.com (HA HA Budys Here) wrote:

Ordinarily "regular" watering is too much for echinaceas, & when established as foot-wide flowery clumps they may need watering ALMOST never except in the droughtiest days of summer. But extremely young or just-planted echinaceas may need fairly regular watering, especially during the hottest droughtiest days of summer, or they'll dry out & do nothing for that year, though usually the root survives & it'll try again for itself the following summer. The ground should be allowed to entirely dry out between waterings, but not be left completely dried out for too terribly long (for young plants), getting no superfical waterings between occasional deep watering.
-paghat the ratgirl
--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
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Even when I plant I don't water often, they prefer to be in good draining drier soil IME. They are known to be drought tollerant once established, I would only water if they were wilting from too much heat or no rain for extended periods. Colleen Zone 5 CT
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On Mon, 02 Aug 2004 09:06:17 -0700, snipped-for-privacy@netscape.net (paghat) wrote:

I've tried twice to grow them -in different spots- with no luck. Maybe this year it's due to too much wetness.
Sue(tm) Lead me not into temptation... I can find it myself!
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I find R. Goldstum a bit less picky than E. purpurea. Both are wonderful plants, but the Echinacea tends to flop over in my garden and the rudbeckia does not. Both self-seed, but the rudbeckia is more vigorous for me. The slugs do go for the rudbeckia, but I haven't noticed them on the Echinacea.
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On Mon, 02 Aug 2004 08:24:07 -0700, Team_Steve wrote:

Both are great and require no real work or fuss. Do both! I will sometime use a ring or hoop to hold up the taller coneflowers, the Black eyed Susans keep themselves up. The Susans spread much faster. I recommend thining out the Susan bed(s) every 3-4 years, just transplant some in the spring, you'll never have to buy more. I started with 3 plants about 7 years ago and from those 3 I have 6 other beds now, each about 4x3 feet in size. about 3-4 feet tall.
Tom
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Both are wonderful easy, low maintenance plants that spread very well and require little to no water once established. The butterflies love them and if you let them go to seed at the end of the season the birds, especially the goldfinches and chickadees love to eat the seeds in the fall. I'd grow both!! Colleen Zone 5 CT
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The NY State DOT has planted hundreds of feet of mixed rudbeckia and echinacea along certain stretches of the Taconic parkway. They don't water at all or do anything except exclude these areas from mowing. I've noticed that people slow down to look... and that these areas are where serious speed related accidents have happened. There are stretches where large patches of phlox grow along side this parkway also.
This is between the Pines Bridge exit and Pleasantville Road exit. I wonder if someone has started this as an experiment in traffic control?
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You might want to consider this: E. purpurea is an extremely potent medicinal plant. Actually E. Angustifolia is better, but in the USA E. Purpurea is more common for medicinal purposes.
Here is a page about it: http://www.forthrt.com/~roland/herbfarm.html
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snipped-for-privacy@visi.com (BRAINIAC) wrote:

Although herbal quacks will forever claim otherwise to keep customers, & herbal hypochondriacs will forever believe it helped them just fine, Echinacea angustifolia, E pallida & E. purpurea are among the herbs that have undergone the best-designed most-rigorous trials, & it's pretty clear it is as close to worthless as an herbal remedy can be!
The June 2000 issue of Antimicrobial Agents & Chemotherapy reports a typical study on echinaceas alleged influence on the common cold. 117 people received either echinacea or a placebo for two weeks, then were exposed them to cold viruses. Those who took the echinacea caught colds at the same rate as those who took placebos. Other research even indicates that taking echinacea regularly may weaken resistance to the common cold.
Another study reported in the Dec 3, 2003 issue of the Journal of the American Medical Association, compared incidents, duration, & severity of the common cold in 407 children in two groups, those treated with echinacea for colds, & those given placebos. The two groups were identical in incident, duration, & severity. Echinacea provided only one bonus: 7% of the children had allergic reactions to the echinacea, so it benifited none, & actually made matters worse for a minority.
The December 17 2002 issue of Annals of Internal Medicine reports on a study done at the University of Wisconsin Madison Medical School, with 20-year-old college students as volunteers. Two species of echinacea were tested. There was no difference in duration & severity of the common cold in the group using echinacea vs the group using a placebo.
Some studies are misrepresented by vendors as proving benefits when the studies actually proved a benefit equal to the placebo effect.
The Jan 2002 issue of Annals of Allergy, Asthma, & Immunology reports on research that did find echinacea one potent area of echinacea. It is one of the most common herbs to induce allergies & asthma attacks.
The "best case" study comes from Mark Blumenthal, director of the American Botanical Council. Although this is an herbal advocacy group, they are independent & do not have any direct connection with any manufacturer of herbal products. Blumenthal also teaches medicinal chemistry at the University of Texas College of Pharmacy, & oversaw a study of two species of echinacea. They discovered the leaves were worthless as a cold suppressant, but found tentative evidence that a concentrated extract of the root MIGHT shorten the duration of common colds. Unfortunately, no preparation available in healthfood stores are restricted to root extracts.
The University of Wisconsin study also included an analysis of 250 other studies, among which an unimpressive 13 studies were like the American Botanical Council findings, none showing conclusive value, but leaving some reason for optimism. The vast majority of the studies left open not even the mixed result that permits faith-driven believers in echinacea to keep fooling themselves.
The benefit that is marginally possible is due to antioxidants in chemical compounds of the roots (not to be found in powdered echinacea however). The claim that echinacea contain antioxidants is true if one is speaking only of the roots, though there are even more antioxidants in a russet potato or a strawberry or a pecan nut or most famously a blueberry. Antioxidants do indeed provide immunity-boosts, & herb vendors rely on studies that inconclusively hint at this immunity benefit from echinacea, while ignoring the greater number of studies that would not make such good advertisements when making the sales pitch to herb-sucking rubes. And bare in mind even the best-case studies would make it no more useful than finishing your potatoes.
Now Ma-huang or "natural ephidrin" IS a powerful herb for treating cold congestion. And therefore banned or restricted because herbs with legitimate potency also have dangerous side effects, sufficiently severe with ma-huang that it is associated with incidents of death & psychosis. What is promoted commercially tends to be the most worthless stuff -- because fake medicines that have no effect beyond that of placebo also have few if any side effects, & can be "safely" recommended by that otherwise unemployable check-out teller at the health food store who has become so many people's prescribing physician.
Cleanliness, well-balanced diet, & exercise are far more beneficial than the sort of powdered or liquescent garden-rubble superstitious people mistake for medicine.
-paghat the ratgirl
--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
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On Fri, 06 Aug 2004 08:06:30 -0700, paghat wrote:

Agreed. Good post.
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All I can tell you is I had a recurring medical problem that spanned five years that was carpet bombed with multiple forms of potent antibiotics and got worse. Finally I was told I needed surgery. I tried Echinacea first and the problem went away.
Also you should forward your message to the German government because they approved Echinacea for medicinal use and prescribe it on a regular basis.
Hey, are you a stooge for Pfizer ?
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wrote:

clear
I have seen claims that 40% of all medical conditions will resolve without intervention. Of course, there are no cures for many other condition and sometimes treatment actually causes problems. It is possible that the antibiotics aggravated your condition rather than treating it and the cessation of treatment, with or without the use of Echinacea would have resulted in an improvement. Just a thought. Sadly, governments often approve worthless or damaging medications such as Thalidomide
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Works for me, haven't been sick or had a cold since I discovered it 20 years ago.
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years
Damn, that's amazing. That's what my mother says, too.
Unfortunately, I can specifically remember her being sick on any number of occasions.
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Must be that memory thing it works on then. ;)
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