Herbacide Effective Area

Hi, Everybody,
Let's say that I draw an imaginary line in the ground.
On one side, I want to kill everything.
On the other side, I want to leave the grass, etc, as is.
If I spray Roundup or similar product in the kill-zone, how far should the application be from the dividing line?
Thanks...
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If you spray on a day with no wind and have an accomplice who holds a screen (say a sheet of plywood) on the line you can spray right up to the line. Watch the drips off the screen.
David
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On Sun, 10 Apr 2005 08:47:59 GMT, "David Hare-Scott"

Glysophate has no effect in the soil, and breaks down almost immediately there. It works systemically through the sprayed foliage of the plants. Spray on a clear, calm day, and you won't even need a screen. :-)
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On Sun, 10 Apr 2005 00:02:34 -0700, Endangered Bucket Farmer wrote:

I tend to stay away from round-up (I don't like their parent company) when it comes to spray edging. It does translocate and your edges can/will be larger than you wish. I use Finale (Glyphosate) for spray edging. Finale has never 'creeped' on my spray lines and unlike round-up, it trully has no soil activity.
If your looking to kill a lot of really tough, deep rooted perennials, then round up may be your first choise. Otherwise you'll most likely will need to re-apply if you use finale. Personally I've never had much issue with growth return with finale. Below are some links on the subject. Either chemical use use, you will need to have caution if there is any wind. Use a piece of cardboard or wood to help you screen the spray when you apply. Good luck.
http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/depts/hort/hil/hil-648.html http://grounds-mag.com/mag/grounds_maintenance_finale_vs_roundup / http://flrec.ifas.ufl.edu/Hort/Turf/chem_edges/chemical.htm
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If you have a killzone, just lay down some cardboard or many layers of newspring on the weeds, cover the paper with rich black organic compost or steer manure (which without soil mixed in will be too sterile for weeds), & by the time the worms have finished eating the cardboard the weeds will all be dead & you only need to turn the soil over to mix in the compost, for a weed-free & toxin-free area of ideal topsoil. If you don't intend to plant the area you could just lay down black plastic for a few weeks & let the sun cook the weeds to death then toss the plastic, but for an area to be planted, the paper-barrier method is ideal because after it kills everything it just turns to plant nutrients for future plantings. And one USUALLY discovers that the organic methods work far better than the chemical methods, whether or not one agrees that toxifying the environment is a bad thing. And products like roundup do much more lasting damage to the environment than the vendors confess, & the surficants in these products have done great harm to watersheds.

As well you shouldn't. But Avento/AgreEvo is doing all the same bad shit as Monsanto, like developing pesticide-tolerant crops so that increasing amounts of toxins can be dumped on farmlands, & lying their asses off about how safe it is for all of us to be eating their chemical pollutants, & "spinning" the safety of GMO crops denying the problem of outcrossing by use of falsified research which never matches findings of independent field studies. They have lied about the significance of outcropping, among other lies, & have been one of the primary funders (along with Dow & Monsanto) of the right-wing think-tank the Hudson Institute which develops misleading propoganda as countermeasures against anyone with environmental concerns (like when the Hudson Institute & John Stossel promulgated the new myth "organic foods can kill you" & insisted that crops not treated with Avento & Monsanto chemicals had more chemicals in them than crops never treated with chemicals). Their eagerness to tell whoppers is so without bounds that they really do go off the deep end & become laughing stocks rather than furthering their agenda, though some of their spokespersons, such as Avento's Dr. Devine, can demonize environmentalists & then run really convincing doublespeak arguments about the safety of just everything the chemical industry does, all the while feeling sorry for anyone who so stupidly dares to think the independent research findings just might be more credible than the in-house falsifications. Sadly, in the chemical industry there aren't good guys & bad guys, but only businessmen, & environmental concern is bad for sales.

Your belief in Dr. Spak's in-house research which "proves" he works for the company with the better herbicide does not meet any test of independent, controlled, doubleblind, uninvested science. The claims you've decided to believe really amount to company propoganda, which after legal suits between Monsanto & Agravo, Agravo has gotten increasingly clever at gamesmanship in lieu of science.
Both products work the same way, & do harm in the same way. Being MORE toxic for speedier kill doesn't necessarily add up to anything but an identical effect in the final assessment, but with more concentrated toxic residues for the more concentrated product. Monsanto's "answer" to Spak's fatuous claims -- Monsanto replies that RoundUp has the least restrictions on legal use because it's safer -- is ultimately an admission that their own product is harmful, a confession made in order to assert that Agravo's Finale is even worse.
Organic methods tend to have accumulative benefits for an increasingly healthy garden, but chemical reliance breeds chemical reliance in a worsening garden environment. That's the main fact of organic vs chemical gardening practices, without even bringing in the issue of broader environmental damage & injury to human health.
-paghat the ratgirl

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On Sun, 10 Apr 2005 13:29:30 -0700, paghat wrote:

Seeing as you have taken great time and effort in your post, I feel I should reply.
I have done the cardboard/blackplastic kill off and I reccommend it to people often. The rub with the cardboard is to use -ThicK-, heavy duty cardboard. I tell my clients not to spare it. Once the cardboard get's wet it tends to fail quickly if not thick and the vegetation will recieve water and keep up the fight and possibly win. I did not recommend this to the poster due to the fact that they have made their decision. The product is bought and paid for and they will use it no matter my thoughts on the subject.

I can see you have an opinion about the subject ;-P .. just kiddin' really. I personaly feel mostly the same about it also, but in business I subscribe to the ipm approach. The client will use chemicals if that's what they want and I would rather be the one applying them than to have the client or other companies applying them. I do my best to be conservative and responsible with the application and I try to choose the lesser of two evils when it comes to chemicals. I do my best to change the client's point of view and I have been able to over time with a few clients.

Like I've said before, I pretty much fully agree with you on the subject but at the end of the day I -NeeD- to make a living. I would love to run a fully organic service but it's just not possible at this point in time in my area. The market demand is just not there but it's begining to change. My business is 80% organic and I always offer an organic option to the client. The clients' want (generaly) instant results which organics just don't do (*generaly).
Personaly I feel that I've done quite a bit of research on herbicides and I'm not the type to swallow what is feed to me readly. As soon as the orgainc herbicides catch up to the chemical ones I'll make the change completely. At this moment organic herbicides are only contact killers and not very efficive. I do what I can to encourage clients to change their planting habits and their mind set of what a sustainable landscape design is.... but in the end the clients will what they will. Have a good one... Timothy
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(...)

That's interesting, where do you live? We are very fortunate in Austin because many of the arborist, landscape, and design businesses are organic and they advertise and it can take a month for them to fit you in. I know Austin is aka the granola of Texas, but organics work and Texas A&M finally did some research into fertilizers and figured out the certified organic fertilizer out performed all others...you have to convince people.

You may want to look into Finale. It's not a glyphosate, nor is it organic, but it is AS systemic as glyphosate and it has not been proven to cause cancer as glyphosate has. Glyphosate is also responsible for killing frogs and other amphibians, some of which are almost extinct.
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On Mon, 11 Apr 2005 12:52:34 +0000, escape wrote:

I live in Bellingham, wa. Lots of hippies running 'round here for sure. Like I stated before, 80% of the work I do is organic. The real issue with selling organic service is organics = labor costs. I have clients that are willing to pay labor costs to have their beds weeded... then I have clients arn't. I have a much easier time selling organic lawn services. Many clients have no clue that I'm doing "organic" service on the lawn. I just hand them a bill for the fertilizer... they pay it. They never seem to take notice to what type of fertilizer was applied.


That is was what I recommended to the original poster. I've used Finale for the last 5 years. I use 15 to 20 gallons a year of finale, mostly for driveways and other utillity areas. I also use horticultural vinegar, but it only works in temperatures above 72. Imho temperatures 75 and above are needed and the sprayed area needs to be in the full sun. I took me a while to get my supplier (whatcom county farmers co-op) to carry it. At 17.50 a gallon (my cost), most people are a bit reserved about purchasing it as a service from me as the cost can be a bit more than they wish to/can spend. Combined with the fact that re-application is most always needed. I tend to recommend clients purchase it on their own and apply it on their own if they wish to stay organic and can't afford my service. As you can tell... I'm not a great business man..lol.
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Actually, I think you are honest and to me that is far more important than the alternative type businessman. To be perfectly honest, I am completely organic, but last year I bought a concentrate of Finale to use on bemuda which I have been digging to China for about 5 years in this house. I have a stand of it out back that I cannot kill no matter what I do. I tried solarization, newspaper, cardboard, 20% vinegar mixed with toxic levels of d-limonine in hot sun and none of that worked. I am so conflicted about using it, but I can't do battle with this weed any more. It's not like I haven't spent countless hours on my hands and knees wearing out Mud Gloves and broke at least one fork.
Keep doing honest business. It's much better in the long run and the grand scheme of life.
V
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Endangered Bucket Farmer Wrote:

How about renting a sod stripper and not have to worry abou chemicals?
New
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On Sun, 10 Apr 2005 22:57:43 +0000, Newt wrote:

Now there's a good idea... and it makes great compost. Stack the sod upside down on top of eack other in a pile and cover it with a tarp.
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