Me too to a great extent. I guess if all I had in terms of space in which
to grow anything, was a tiny balcony, I might think differently.
I'd rather just grow loose leaf lettuces and other quick growers like rocket
and mustard green and perennials like sorrel and the dear old Silver beet -
love tiny silver beet leaves in a tomatoey salad with crispy bacon bits.
Love rocket too. It's near dinner so I'm beginnign to lust after food.
BTW, I hope you get the result you want out of today's election. We voted
last week as we are Silent Electors. I just wish there had been a box for
"A pox on all their Houses".
Fran and I are in that position, I don't want to pollute the NG with party
politics but let us say things are not going well if you care anything about
the environment or the future for your grandchildren.
My SIL tries to justify casting an informal vote by saying that all the
candidates are so bad he couldn't vote for any of them. My response is that
is the time when you must vote. If all the candidates were good it doesn't
really matter too much if the second best gets in as things will plod along
anyway. When they are all bad you must ensure that the worst doesn't get in
as they might do some real damage.
The first thing our new Prime Minister will do will be to neuter any action
on climate change. And that is quite enough politics.
if you wait for the politicians in any country
at this point you are wasting time and probably
just looking for yet another reason to
do what you can locally, find others to work
with who aren't obstructionists and pool
resources and efforts.
What a dopy argument. The amount that the individual can do alone is
completely trivial. Millions of people together can do something but before
you have that organised the pollies who opposed it would be out of office
anyway and the job is already done. A grass-roots movement might force
action on a government but the effect they can have instead of government
action is quite insufficient.
If you want to deal with climate change then elect a government that will
By all means, one has to lead by example if trying to bring about change but
don't fantasise that it will have any effect compared with (say) my local
port that exports hundreds of millions of tons of coal per year.
only people who put themselves in that category
are certain to remain there. the rest of us refuse
such classifications and do what we can. some may
appear trivial, but here is one example to counter
in Africa there was a desert reforestation project
being conducted and the guy working on it was really
discouraged because so few of the projects or trees
would survive (if even one survived that was a gain
for that small space as far as i was concerned).
then he noticed bits of green growing from the ground
that were native plants, but in fact they were sprouts
from trees that were never allowed or trained to grow
larger (over grazing, trampled, cut off for firewood).
so he started talking to the people about how if they
would allow these sprouts to grow and train a few to
get larger then they could have trees again, that would
survive, but the people had to protect them and work a
bit to get the sprouts growing.
the result was not a few trees in a small area, but
over five million hectares of near desert returned to
more tree cover. that added wind-break on a hot day
often means the double or triple of a crop return. not
counting the fruits and firewood and the many returning
animals and insects or improved soil. how many tons of
extra carbon put back into the soil? no measurement
but it wouldn't be a small amount.
what was the cost? nothing. it wasn't a formal
project sponsored by any government. it worked
by word of mouth as farmers saw the actual results
and how things improved.
here is a link which gives more details:
another smaller example would be the Strong Bees
of the Chikukwa, but i won't spoil that story by
attempting to summarize. it's a good read, these
people just did it and they'll keep on going in
some form even if the government or international
organizations abandon them again.
if it gets done it surely isn't insufficient.
too slow. doing is faster. but, yes, vote,
and i do.
add the right scrubbers and processes and that
becomes much less of a problem. not that i think
it's a good idea to still be burning coal, but i
doubt China or India will be giving it up any time
soon. if we can encourage them to add better CO2
scrubbing then we've gained something where if we
just throw our hands up and say nothing can be
done, then we've fallen victim to a fantasy far
worse than hoping people will make needed changes.
'Bird, David and I both live in Oz and since Oz is the home of permaculture,
he and I wopuld both know of multiple examples where those sorts of projects
have been implemented and are working in the 3rd world. In the 3rd world
people still know how to perform hard physical work. They will put in
personal physical effort wtihout a tractor or an air conditioner being
available or even sought.
Sadly you, like David and I both live in the 1st world and that is where the
problems lie and from where they stem. The 3rd world knows that they have
to do without unless they do for themsleves and they (with the excepton of
the emerging tiger economies) arent' where the solutions lie. Our 1st world
is not the same at all. It's a greedy, rapacious, unthinking, uncaring
place where everyone buys new T shirts every year.
Now you may wonder why I ended that sentence with the phrase about T shirts,
but T shirts are an analogy for so many of the ills of our 1st world. We
export the work, we export the pollution of production, we import the profit
and the goods - you'd know enough to fill in the rest of the analogy I'm
In the 1st world where the problems stem, it can't get done without
political input and legistlation. It doesn't get done because you and me
recycle our cans and bottles and compost and grow food.
David sees coal by the millions of tons of boat loads being exported from a
port near him. That coal is going to pollute a 3rd world country so we can
buy back T shirts and breathe more carbon rich air produced by that 3rd
world making the T shirt.
And that is all any of us can do in our positions (other than reccyling our
cans and bottle and growing and composting)
It will if they are compelled by legislation to install scrubbers. Until
then they are not going to do it out of the goodness of their managerial
hearts because then they will have to pay out less to shareholders.
not that i think
They might if countries like Australia and other coal producers have
legislative restrictions that apply. Of course that supposes that the 1st
world will think about its T shirts.
if we can encourage them to add better CO2
OK 'Bird, off you go and tell China and India to put in scrubbers. I'll
join you in doing so as I'm sure will David and every other poster who posts
A nanasecond of thinking asbout that will tell you how effective we few
Now if my country's government had some guts and was prepared to look the
Chinese government representatives in the eye and bargain like the Chinese
do, we might just manage to get some scrubbers in place in one or 2 places
Your argument might be relevant if you would stick to the efficacy of
individual climate change action. I am not interested in debating the
generality of every situation around the world where individual action might
or might not work to bring about change. The comparison with permaculture
is just an argument by analogy which says nothing about the case at hand.
We have both said enough OT already so lets leave it there.
i addressed the "completely trivial" point.
every bit of extra CO2 counts no matter how
it gets taken out of the air. helps avoid the
compounded series of problems later or makes
them some amount smaller.
CO2 sequestration isn't OT for gardeners.
Thanks, another great resource. I'm still seeing the same trend,
though. It's still shockingly expensive. But what was I to expect, I
My local go-to place for all things gardening (despite being an
apartment-dweller) does sell small bulk amounts, too, but they're not
organic. And organic becomes an issue esp. the smaller the size of
the resulting produce. So I daren't go that route.
Well, thanks everyone. I have a lot to think about. Interesting
tangent on political and other issues, too. That was fun <g>.
I'll report back if I find a viable, cost-effective solution.
ah, well yes, that's going to increase any
price unless you happen to know someone who
will grow them for you.
where are you located? might want to try
a wanted advertisement on craigslist...
if you like turnip greens check the local
grain elevators as some will carry them by
the lb for a few dollars. they will not be
rated food safe for eating directly (the seeds)
but they should sprout just fine for greens
(not likely to be organic source, but you can
they may have other seeds or be able to source
them for you if you ask nicely.
<sigh> Thank you! One of the challenges is since I've always had to be an apartment dweller is that I have little experience with how much
a certain number of seeds can produce in terms of harvest. But $34
for 1 lb of seeds seems rather more reasonable than what those little
packets cost when comparing the numbers in the yields. And it says on
the bottom of that page: "On average, 1oz of seed can produce 1500
plants." Seems quite reasonable in numbers though experience will
tell me what that really means in terms of daily harvest.
I've just emailed the company to see if they have organic mesclun
Thanks so much for all the help here! I know you folks are real
gardeners and people like me are just dabblers but life got very hard
3 years ago when I took a 40% pay cut. I'm growing my own sunflower
seed and pea shoot and wheatgrass sprouts with great success (though
wheatgrass I can only classify as only being fairly successful
consistently as it gives trouble <g>), and I am in better health now
than before even after a lifetime of indifferent health. If I can
figure out the salad angle via microgreens, I'll feel as safe as one
can in today's global economy and trends.
Thanks so much! :oD
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