Return On Investment

[FarmI]

Please be more careful about your attributions songbird. I did not write anything to which you have responded.

[Billy]

Wikipedia doesn't mention that any plant species have been lost. Why do you? Can you say, beyond a reasonable doubt, that species have been lost?

"SAVE THE LEAF LITTER"

[Billy]

And this has what to do with the "organic religion"? Is this ADHD again?

"SAVE THE LEAF LITTER"

[Billy]

"SAVE THE LEAF LITTER"

[Billy]

"SAVE THE LEAF LITTER"

A few years ago, an obesity researcher at the University of Washington named Adam Drewnowski ventured into the supermarket to solve a mystery. He wanted to figure out why it is that the most reliable predictor of obesity in America today is a person¹s wealth. For most of history, after all, the poor have typically suffered from a shortage of calories, not a surfeit. So how is it that today the people with the least amount of money to spend on food are the ones most likely to be overweight? (cont.)

------

Seems like the problem is the distribution of wealth.

[Billy]

[Billy]

Like the man said (I paraphrase), most modern illnesses would go away, if we ate a paleolithic diet.

[Bill who putters]

Another was to extend shelf life. Then wealthy style setters said it was cool and beside dental caries can be fixed. It truly is good to live below the salt. This when "a pox on thee" was a real curse

Gaudette 2:25 Steeleye Span Below The Salt Country MPEG audio file

2005 7/1/10 6:14 AM

[phorbin]

A fair comment.

I have just enough time to drink my morning coffee, and rub a few thoughts together and say something mildly irksome. Then I'm away to weed someone's garden.

I'm reasoning on the fly and not claiming my reasoning as a statement of fact. Someone else may have the facts. It's summer busy season and right now I have just a little time for reasoning, and no time for research.

I trust Wikipedia up to a point.

I think it is beyond reasonable doubt that species have been lost but to work that one out properly I would probably have to be able to go to the native peoples' and ask if their oral tradition names plants that have vanished from the landscape and at least correlate the loss with the change in forest floor. -- Or maybe someone's already done the work.

Anyway, coffee's finished. NOT looking forward to today.

I have a giant hogweed to deal with. I'm glad it's in someone else's garden.

Wish me luck.

[Billy]

Go get 'em. This does seem to be more of a wintery discussion, when we have more time to chew on it. I'm afraid that I let myself get pissed off (note to Aussies: this is American pissed off ;O) The thought that going back to traditional agriculture was going to poison the food supply, is just profoundly dumb. If anything, to be healthy, we should step away from agriculture altogether, and return to hunter-gathering. I know, right now it doesn't seem to have a future either.

Good luck with that hogweed.

[Billy]

Considering that we are already past the Earth's carrying capacity for humanity, adding another 5 billion people by 2067 doesn't seem to be a very bright idea. I sort of feel like the mastodon being chased towards the cliff, and being told not to worry about it.

. . . humanity's demand for 1999 exceeded the planet's biocapacity for

1999 by over 20 percent[9].

[Billy]

Try to get it into that dormant organ that resides between your ears, that "organic agriculture" doesn't increase flavonids, it simply doesn't suppress them as insecticides do.

Biological roles Flavonoids are widely distributed in plants fulfilling many functions. Flavonoids are the most important plant pigments for flower coloration producing yellow or red/blue pigmentation in petals designed to attract pollinator animals. Flavonoids secreted by the root of their host plant help Rhizobia in the infection stage of their symbiotic relationship with legumes like peas, beans, clover, and soy. Rhizobia living in soil are able to sense the flavonoids and this triggers the secretion of Nod factors, which in turn are recognized by the host plant and can lead to root hair deformation and several cellular responses such as ion fluxes and the formation of a root nodule. They also protect plants from attacks by microbes, fungi[3] and insects. [edit] Potential for biological activity Flavonoids (specifically flavanoids such as the catechins) are "the most common group of polyphenolic compounds in the human diet and are found ubiquitously in plants".[4] Flavonols, the original bioflavonoids such as quercetin, are also found ubiquitously, but in lesser quantities. Both sets of compounds have evidence of health-modulating effects in animals which eat them. The widespread distribution of flavonoids, their variety and their relatively low toxicity compared to other active plant compounds (for instance alkaloids) mean that many animals, including humans, ingest significant quantities in their diet. Resulting from experimental evidence that they may modify allergens, viruses, and carcinogens, flavonoids have potential to be biological "response modifiers", such as anti-allergic, anti-inflammatory,[5] anti-microbial[6] and anti-cancer activities shown from in vitro studies.[7] [edit] Antioxidant activity in vitro Flavonoids (both flavonols and flavanols) are most commonly known for their antioxidant activity in vitro. Consumers and food manufacturers have become interested in flavonoids for their possible medicinal properties, especially their putative role in prevention of cancers and cardiovascular diseases. Although physiological evidence is not yet established, the beneficial effects of fruits, vegetables, and tea or even red wine have sometimes been attributed to flavonoid compounds rather than to known micronutrients, such as vitamins and dietary minerals.[8] Alternatively, research conducted at the Linus Pauling Institute and evaluated by the European Food Safety Authority indicates that, following dietary intake, flavonoids themselves are of little or no direct antioxidant value.[9][10] As body conditions are unlike controlled test tube conditions, flavonoids and other polyphenols are poorly absorbed (less than 5%), with most of what is absorbed being quickly metabolized and excreted. The increase in antioxidant capacity of blood seen after the consumption of flavonoid-rich foods is not caused directly by flavonoids themselves, but most likely is due to increased uric acid levels that result from metabolism of flavonoids.[11] According to Frei, "we can now follow the activity of flavonoids in the body, and one thing that is clear is that the body sees them as foreign compounds and is trying to get rid of them." [edit] Other potential health benefits [edit] Cancer Physiological processing of unwanted flavonoid compounds induces so-called Phase II enzymes that also help to eliminate mutagens and carcinogens, and therefore may be of value in cancer prevention. Flavonoids could also induce mechanisms that may kill cancer cells and inhibit tumor invasion.[11] UCLA cancer researchers have found that study participants who ate foods containing certain flavonoids, such as catechins found in strawberries and green and black teas; kaempferol from brussel sprouts and apples; and quercetin from beans, onions and apples, may have reduced risk of obtaining lung cancer.[12] Research also indicated that only small amounts of flavonoids may be needed for possible benefits. Taking large dietary supplements likely provides no extra benefit and may pose risks. However, certainty of neither a benefit nor a risk has been proven yet in large-scale human intervention trials.[11] [edit] Diarrhea A study done at Children's Hospital & Research Center Oakland, in collaboration with scientists at Heinrich Heine University in Germany, has shown that epicatechin, quercetin and luteolin can inhibit the development of fluids that result in diarrhea by targeting the intestinal cystic fibrosis transmembrane conductance regulator Cl­ transport inhibiting cAMP-stimulated Cl­ secretion in the intestine.[13] [edit] Capillary stabilizing agents Bioflavonoids like rutin, monoxerutin, diosmin, troxerutin and hidrosmin have potential vasoprotective proprieties still under experimental evaluation.[citation needed] [edit]

[Dan L.]

Wild Boars in Michigan? Can They survive the Michigan winters? Excellent! I can have Prosciutto! Cool! I have the fresh eggs, soon to have fresh milk and beef. Now pork! No need to raise my own pigs, yesss!!!! I never cared for venison :(

[Dan L.]

I am in sad shape :) I make my own junk food: potato chips, peanut brittle, mayo... However, my own processed junk food does not contain exotic chemicals :) The food processor is my friend.

[songbird]

FarmI wrote: ...

sorry, people are using different versions of quoting than what i am used to.

songbird

[Bill who putters]

Potatoes fried at a high temp with good oil is a treat. Fresh mayonnaise the same. Brittle with black walnut more to my liking. The term process has much to do with scale and attention to the product in this case food. I'd submit that poorly made home made with fresh products beats large scale reasonable well presented foods. Style after all is not substance by it¹s very definition. A food processor slices and dices. Food processor companies do that too but just as Christ said 12 is enough many more and the relationship is diminished. Cutting to sparse where it all came from and the connection to all life. After all chickens come in a bag and milk in a bottle and forget Veal. Then there is the mater of grateful and being or not being and does it work on a thymus ?

[Dan L.]

Excellent video and may have answered some questions I have.

I use to have sky high triglycerides. However, the doctor recommended a low gluten diet. It worked within 6 month's my triglycerides was normal. Now I wonder, by not consuming bread products, I also cut back on the sweeteners. At the same time many Non-Gluten books also states no consumption of HFCS. Now I am thinking, perhaps it was not the gluten, but sweeteners that dropped the triglycerides?

I consume more honey (fructose) now than sugar, is that a good move?

The one spot hit me was the large amount of HFCS in baby formulas!

[Dan L.]

One other item one cannot find in super market other than veal, is a meat from a rooster. My chickens are old enough to have connective tissue that makes them better tasting (in my book). Hens for eggs and roosters for dinner.

[songbird]

Billy wrote: ...

false. some food was grown organically pre 1945, but much of the rest of it was grown in a kind of slow motion slash and burn agriculture. the slash and burn was not tropical forests, but the result is still the same, the topsoil is used up in many places and there is no cheap fix.

have you made any claims about pre-history and sustainabilty? other than your general waving of the word organic at it, but i suspect that much of what you think about pre-history isn't accurate either. i'll admit i don't know either. :)

it is if science eventually shows that the pathways that flavonoids take in the body are not universally beneficial then my point is valid. i mentioned the liver in specific because it is vital to any debate about nutritional health and various effects from different sources.

also, there is such a thing as too much of a substance not being a good thing. folic acid, vitamin A, copper, selenium, iron, and many others, required in small amounts, but beyond that amount possibly toxic. what makes you think that flavonoids escape that type of problem? do they flush out of the body without any cellular intervention -- does the liver not have to regulate them or their byproducts? i'll admit i don't know, i'm not sure the science is in on them completely. or at least i would be very surprised if any reputable scientist says they are a

100% solved item. there's much we still do not know.

your effort failed, most people agree with me that healthy garden soil does not sequester carbon, for the most part it cycles it.

if you want to argue that changing poor soils to better sequesters carbon then i'll give you that, but that is still a small and limited amount compared to what is actually needed. and then, eventually the poor soil improves to the point where it mostly cycles carbon again, but it is not the same degree of carbon sink as compared to a forest. but even the mature forest will be a relatively carbon neutral cycle.

note: there were some interesting hints in the literature i scanned about some sequestration by certain bacteria in soil that already had charcoal/char/etc in it, but i'm not sure this is a phenomena that will be repeatable world wide. it might require tropical jungle conditions with a certain level of moisture or some other factors not very transferrable. i.e. the science is still out on this. a small glimmer there from what i've seen so far. i'm always looking for more such hints of hope.

most often i'm amused, but whatever makes you happy.

songbird

[songbird]

Billy wrote: ...

seems like the problem is people eating poorly.

songbird