OT but a welcome bit of brightness

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Billy wrote:

it's an important hair to split if you're talking about sustainable agriculture over the long term. if it takes materials from other locations to keep a farm's topsoil going then it becomes a larger question about how sustainably those materials are grown. as it is pretty sure the soils in that area are already heavily depleted by tobacco farming it is a critical question and one i'm surprised you're just ready to accept as not really important.
i'm not buying the claim as being true.

...
put in some cooler weather plants. peas/peapods are my favorites here. for arid climates tepary beans are one possibility, but i'm not sure how they do with cool weather.

well yeah, our country doesn't care about sustainable practices enough as of yet. in time it will be forced to.

it happens, companies do go private.

links don't help, i'm not always on-line, it is like a rock sitting in the conversational road.
...


oy!
...

well, i'll say i don't agree with many of his assumptions and so that won't lead me to much harmony with his conclusions.

i did, i don't agree with too many of his assumptions.
...

no sewers in a compost world.

i think a person deserves more respect in his stated need and desires far above any formula that some other person at a distance has come up with.
if i say i can get by on $2/hr who are you to say i can't?

...
oh, so they're not poisons after all? :) no, i'm just making a joke. i much prefer my food to be dioxin free...
...

i've had basic chemistry.
i don't see any perpetual mechanism for larger molecules or particles to hold together in the face of being soaked up and settled out or being degraded by the sun, beaten on the shore, coated by bacteria, fungi, etc.
how can you conclude these compounds persist indefinitely if we were to stop making more of them?

non-prophet, no-return, rapture free range nut, all minions adored, this week's special includes gluten free t-shirts, just clip this coupon and redeem...
songbird
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Did the bison poop where exactly where they consumed the buffalo grass, or was it a couple of hundred yards away? I didn't say that Salatin was making 1" of top soil in a closed system. Like all other news, I get it second or third hand, through reporters I trust, or from enough reporters to make it plausible.
" Their system is based on native pastures, without cultivation or new, ³improved² pasture species. The only input has been the feed for the poultry. This multi-species rotational grazing system builds one inch of soil a year and returns the family 15 times the income per acre than is received by neighbouring farms using a set stocking of cattle." - Andre Leu President of the Organic Producers Association of Queensland and vice chair of the Organic Federation of Australia
The above statement, and the praise from Michael Pollan gives me confidence that the statement is probably true.

That's your prerogative.
My computer's dictionary lists "Make the most efficient use of non-renewable resources and on-farm resources and integrate, where appropriate, natural biological cycles and controls", as one of the attributes of sustainable agriculture.

Doesn't help if you want to grow sweet corn, or melons. If all the stars line up, we can grow these things, but we have had cool summers for nearly a decade now, i.e. only 1 - 3 days of temps over 100F, whereas in the bad ol' days we'd get 6 - 12 100F days.

Too bad the government can't make federal land available for for sustainable agriculture.

They go private so that they won't have to show their books to the public.

Wierd, I'm using Firefox, and it goes right to it, as does Safari, and E.I.

Oy, indeed.

Wouldn't want to amplify on that would you? You disagree with what assumptions?

What, that a division between the people who did the actual work, and the planners didn't lead to a stratification of society? The word civilization comes from the Latin civitas, meaning city or city-state.
You saw his argument on hunter/gatherers superior health?

The point was that wages were tied to the desirability of the job. The more desirable it was, the less it paid. The less desirable it was, the more it paid. This isn't the only algorithm to arrive a reasonable wage. The one we have now is individual greed and exploitation of the society where they are.

If I say you can get by on $2/day, who are you to argue?

?? Yeah, sometimes they work. Sometimes they don't.

As was pointed out, they are incorporated into the food chain, or they can settle out like mercury, only to be methylated and introduced into the food chain (or web, if you will).

Not indefinitely, maybe only 100,000 years, but not indefinitely, unless they are incorporated into sedimentary rock.

Two for the price of one?
The revolution will not be right back after a message about a white tornado, white lightning, or white people. You will not have to worry about a dove in your bedroom, a tiger in your tank, or the giant in your toilet bowl. The revolution will not go better with Coke. The revolution will not fight the germs that may cause bad breath. The revolution will put you in the driver's seat.
The revolution will not be televised, will not be televised, will not be televised, will not be televised. The revolution will be no re-run brothers; The revolution will be live. -------
So what's it to be, Hinayana, or Mahayana?
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Billy wrote:

the above statement is wrong. "The only input" is incorrect.

i'm still king... :)

i have stated multiple times that i consider Salatin's efforts as _more_ sustainable than most conventional agriculture. other than that i couldn't say how sustainable or how it impacts the surrounding area. mostly i think it is ok. i'd rather live near his farm than many others.

good luck!
have you ever tried the smaller baby corn plants? i'm not a corn guru. around here all corn that isn't well protected is raccoon food.

i'm not sure what land you are talking about but most land i'm aware of that the government owns is either in cities, military, nuclear testing, or sparse rangeland that should not be used for any soil disturbing agriculture.
for a longer term project i'd want ownership. out west in arid places i'd also require water rights. it doesn't make any sense to do long term projects if you can't harvest rain water to hold back and use and if you aren't sure how long you'll be there. that is what makes most property taxes so nasty. it's almost impossible to do a longer term project that doesn't turn into yet another exploitive system.
...

you can think that, but i'm sure in many cases that is wrong.
if you really have such a negative opinion of so many others how do you manage to drive down the road or buy food at the store or do much of anything other than huddle in a cave waiting for the boogeyman?
...

good luck!

that agriculture was the cause of class divisions. that he's making valid comparisons between cultures on the whole. that he's doing much other than picking what suits the conclusions he's already made.
...

i'll repeat myself. all groups stratify. period. full stop. end of statement. function of the species/brain. we group, divide up, regroup, etc. constantly. even the most rigid of the religious societies fragment and divide once the charismatic leader dies or something happens which sets enough people off into another direction. it's just what we do.
any group of people of more than one person has a class system, rankings, etc. they may be unspoken and there are likely many different ones in operation.

and i don't agree, he's sweeping a lot of things under the rug.
read any modern text on microbiology and parasitology. read any collection of actual studies by anthropologists of many different groups. there are no utopian societies in the past. all have their challenges and troubles.
having read 1491, etc. recently how can you accept this comparison as being right? if you took a group from a European area in 1490s and compared that to a group from the Amazon area at that time you'd find the Amazons decimated by diseases.
...rest snipped, gotta get out for a walk before the rains come...
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Would you amplify that response? What other inputs?

What is the source of your doubt? Who claims otherwise?

Just let me adjust the "Sword of Damcles" for you.

Not to put too fine a point on it, your arguments sound as if they are based on faith.

One year I had a really good stand of dent corn, but the sweet corn just petered out. Yeah, I've tried the 60 day wonder corn, but still no go. I'll probably try the "Golden Bantum" corn again.
I figure I can let rocky the rascally raccoon have a portion of what I grow, after all, he and his kin were here first.

How about mountain top removal, or strip mining, or just plain ol' mining? Military bases are being closed. They would be one place to develope. Agriculture can take place without plows. Any land that is leased, should have a remediation plan.

Of public lands?

What about downstream users?

Exploitive systems-R-us. The business model is "privatize the profits", and "socalize the costs" be if foul air, diry water, or sick employees.

Since the dot-com bubble of 1999, more public companies go private each year, according to financial sources like "Business Week" and CNN. Reasons for changing the business structure of major corporations vary from company to company. However, a general trend seems to be because private companies are subject to less regulatory oversight.

You mean Koch Industries, Bechtel, Cargill, Publix, Pilot Corp., one of the members of the Big Four accounting firms, Deloitte Touche Tohmatsu, Hearst Corporation, S. C. Johnson, and Mars which are among the largest privately held companies in the United States? Oh, ja, you betcha.
You're a regular Pollyanna, aren't you?

Luck doesn't have much to do with it. It's just tinkering to maximize what I've got. It's a small garden, but it has given me a great education.

There are at least three sets of reasons to explain the findings that agriculture was bad for health. First, hunter-gatherers enjoyed a varied diet, while early farmers obtained most of their food from one or a few starchy crops. The farmers gained cheap calories at the cost of poor nutrition. (Today just three high-carbohydrate plants--wheat, rice, and corn--provide the bulk of the calories consumed by the human species, yet each one is deficient in certain vitamins or amino acids essential to life.) Second, because of dependence on a limited number of crops, farmers ran the risk of starvation if one crop failed. Finally, the mere fact that agriculture encouraged people to clump together in crowded societies, many of which then carried on trade with other crowded societies, led to the spread of parasites and infectious disease. (Some archaeologists think it was crowding, rather than agriculture, that promoted disease, but this is a chicken-and-egg argument, because crowding encourages agriculture and vice versa.) Epidemics couldn't take hold when populations were scattered in small bands that constantly shifted camp. Tuberculosis and diarrheal disease had to await the rise of farming, measles and bubonic plague the appearance of large cities.
Besides malnutrition, starvation, and epidemic diseases, farming helped bring another curse upon humanity: deep class divisions. Hunter- gatherers have little or no stored food, and no concentrated food sources, like an orchard or a herd of cows: they live off the wild plants and animals they obtain each day. Therefore, there can be no kings, no class of social parasites who grow fat on food seized from others. Only in a farming population could a healthy, nonproducing elite set itself above the disease-ridden masses. Skeletons from Greek tombs at Mycenae c.1500 B.C. suggest that royals enjoyed a better diet than commoners, since the royal skeletons were two or three inches taller and had better teeth (on average, one instead of six cavities or missing teeth). Among Chilean mummies from c. A.D. 1000, the elite were distinguished not only by ornaments and gold hair clips but also by a fourfold lower rate of bone lesions caused by disease.
If we consider a twenty-four hour clock on which one hour represents 100,000 years of real past time. It the history of the human race began at midnight, then we would now be almost at the end of our first day. We lived as hunter-gatherers for nearly the whole of that day,from midnight through dawn, noon, and sunset. Finally, at 11:54 p.m., we adopted agriculture. As our second midnight approaches, will the plight of famine-stricken peasants gradually spread to engulf us all? Or will we somehow achieve those seductive blessings that we imagine behind agriculture's glittering facade and that have so far eluded us?

And your example of that in a hunter/gatherer group would be . . . ? It used to be, if you didn't like your neighbors, or the local strong man, you walked away. The food was there for the taking anyway.

Such as?

Studies by George Armelagos and his colleagues then at the University of Massachusetts show these early Indian farmers paid a price for their new-found livelihood. Compared to the huntergatherers who preceded them, the farmers had a nearly fifty percent increase in enamel defects indicative of malnutrition, a fourfold increase in iron-deficiency anemia (evidenced by a bone condition called porotic hyperostosis), a threefold rise in bone lesions reflecting infectious disease in general, and an increase in degenerative conditions of the spine, probably reflecting a lot of hard physical labor. "Life expectancy at birth in the preagricultural community was about twenty-six years," says Armelagos, "but in the postagricultural community it was nineteen years. So these episodes of nutritional stress and infectious disease were seriously affecting their ability to survive."
[T]he mere fact that agriculture encouraged people to clump together in crowded societies, many of which then carried on trade with other crowded societies, led to the spread of parasites and infectious disease.
Similar contrasts in nutrition and health persist on a global scale today. To people in rich countries like the U.S., it sounds ridiculous to extol the virtues of hunting and gathering. But Americans are an elite, dependent on oil and minerals that must often be imported from countries with poorer health and nutrition. If one could choose between being a peasant farmer in Ethiopia or a Bushman gatherer in the Kalahari, which do you think would be the better choice?

Brought from Europe. Neither groupe was hunter/gatherers. The Amazonians tended huge orchards, which is where most of the terra preta was found.

And I have ivy that needs pulling, plants that need water, and lettuce, and flowers to plant. If I have time, maybe I'll start a new tray of seeds for germination.
Just have to have it done by 6:30 PM, which is when I plop in front of the TV, margarita in hand, to watch the news, on Deutsche Welle. Simple tariyaki chicken dinner tonight. Ten minutes to prep, and then cooks for an hour, and serve. Not sure whether I'll make a salad, or steam a couple of artichokes (they're huge). Chives from the garden for the baked potato.
ˆ la table!
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Billy wrote:

...conversation about Joel Salatin's methods...

from the books of his that i have read he brings in corn, wood chips, sawdust, chickens, pigs, turkeys, and _any_ other organic material he can get for cheap, in one case he got a truckload of sweet potatoes. i think he no longer brings in cows as his herd breeds well enough on it's own [which is great as far as i'm concerned -- in his _Salad Bar Beef_ book he describes how he went through and culled out the disease prone cows and selected for certain characteristics. an interesting topic in it's own right.]
he also has to bring in other materials for the packaging and sales, fencing for the fields, fuel for the tractors, saws, chipper, mower, baler.
his pigs and cows he has butchered off-site so he looses out on the offal from those for composting.
i don't know what he does for the turkeys or rabbits. i'm assuming they butcher their own rabbits.
the chicken butchering process is described in several of the books so that is known to be done on site. the innards from the chickens gets composted.

reading his books where he describes his practices. you seem to be as you keep quoting the same point over and over again even though it has been refuted by his own words in his own books.

it's the dictator who says who sits where.
as i recline (as a proper state fitting to an heir of the Roman empire) i'd be more worried about Procrustean adjustments...

faith in my reading abilities and recall of what i have read.
...your local garden...

the problem around here is that they don't take only a few ears and leave the rest alone, they'll raid the entire garden clean.
...

for any new projects there are things required nowadays (called Environmental Impact Studies). i doubt there are any new mines going in without a remediation plan also being in place. for the older mines i don't know what they have set up for the longer term.

i've not studied western water rights as i don't live out that ways (but it is becoming a topic of interest because a relative has some land out there and they are asking me questions and we're talking about their site).

there's more than one business model. i keep thinking you have no actual experience in small businesses, non-profits or governmental organizations. it seems you are only bent upon larger corporations and even some of those are decent and do what they can to help out.
recently there was a list of companies and organizations published that purchase clean energy credits to offset their energy use. is that something you see a company doing if they had no interest in being socially responsible?
...

statistics would be interesting to back this up. more and more companies could be going private just because there are more and more companies overall. many have been created since so many people lost work and had to start their own things up from scratch. so that base number could be quite relevant to the discussion of how many are going private...

no, but i'm aware of the over-all trends in the society and it is towards cleaner and sustainable ways of doing things. more and more people will keep applying pressure even upon companies that aren't as socially responsible as others because competitively over the long haul a company that doesn't pay attention to the wants of the customers isn't going to do as well as the rest that do.

a prime example of my point. there are many hunter-gatherer societies that do not live off a varied diet.

plenty of hunter-gatherers were/are in the same situation.

reads like begging the question to me.

if you were an idiot farmer then yeah. there were likely idiot hunter-gatherers who starved too.

the mere fact is that it is likely that there were people clumping together for reasons other than agriculture long before agriculture came along.

the whole thing is a chicken-and-egg argument...

this is the point in dispute isn't it? i claim that class divisions existed in groups long before agriculture.

this is a very limited view of hunter-gathering societies, which happens to ignore some groups which do store food (because they live places where it stays cold enough to freeze meat) or the herders who have large stores of food on the hoof. it also ignores the many groups which lived in northern climates which required them to have food stores for the winter or they'd die. so clearly there is a bias in his writings, observations and comments which exclude peoples who clearly survived just fine for thousands of years without agriculture who also had class divisions in their groups.

perhaps to be an elite you had to be healthier to begin with? perhaps there are other reasons for the elite being healthier? like they had personal servants who kept things clean? that could make a difference in disease rates apart from nutrition...
i don't find his arguments well thought out and too much of the conclusion is biased by his preconceptions.

i'd suggest finding a better approach, but shoddy thinking isn't too likely going to help much at all.

strong and smart person is likely at the top of the heap. most likely that person will even be more on top if they are considered good looking or have charisma, if they have many children or many wives or husbands.
children, elders, injured, chronically sick, mothers, fathers, those who know the plants and animals well.
there are many different types of layering going on, one person may be at the bottom of the heap in one aspect but near the top in another.

i think that's not very likely. families stick together even in the face of some rather rotten behaviors and situations. many many stories of police getting called into a domestic dispute to help break it up only to find that both parties start in on the police officer. there's a good reason why police hate domestic trouble calls...

all the stuff i wrote above.

i'd look into that study further because i'd want to know how they actually did the comparison between the two societies.

repetition of the conclusion does not make an argument any stronger. the "mere fact" is in dispute.

sure does. there's not many places left to hunt and gather from. monocrop farming is likely to continue to remove wild spaces and kill off diversity. so... if you really want to make the most difference put your money into nature conservation efforts in various places (to protect diversity), read up on native plants and how to give them a good home, add more food plants for critters to your property and keep the water from getting polluted that runs through your area.

i've already made the choice to be a peasant farmer in the US. why would i want to go to either of those places? :) i'll be green and save the transportation cost.

so that is a comparison between two groups of agriculturalists. one built topsoil and the other destroyed it. what were the differences that brought this about?
wouldn't the existance of both terra preta and agriculture based upon thousands of years be a counter-example to his claims? from what i have read of digs done in that area i'm not hearing anything that tells me that was a society divided by deep stratification or that those people suffered from malnutrition and diseases. so i think this is a more interesting and fruitful thing to look into or think about.
as for the rest of the above agricultural tragedy line of arguments.
too many holes in assumptions and comparisons being made. selective biases in picking groups to compare, etc. i just don't know how you can consider his arguments very strong. looking into the one study mentioned might be on the list of topics for the future, but otherwise i think i'll let you have the last words.
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Thanks for the reference "Salad Bar Beef". I just ordered it from the library. Ain't the internet swell?
I sit corrected, but it still seems you are being a tad harsh in your criticism of Salatin. Given that most farmers are losing topsoil, that Salatin is creating topsoil is a paradigm shift of epic proportions.
Then in my dictionary I find that sustainable agriculture is conserving an ecological balance by avoiding depletion of natural resources.
Permaculture, however, is the development of agricultural ecosystems intended to be sustainable and self-sufficient.
The later definition seems to be what you are chastising Salatin for not being. We all want our heros to be bigger, and better, but ol'Joel ain't doin' too bad.
I notice that "Salad Bar Beef" was written in 1995, whereas "Omnivore's Dilemma" was written in 2009. Just conjecturing here, but perhaps the differences in descriptions reflect the evolution of Polyface Farms. (Nous allons voir.)

I don't like regressive taxes either, but I'm sure that it is quite possible to have 'crusty adjustments, and an uneasy head, too.

Well, that takes the wind out of my rant!
Onward!

You'll have to admit, go on admit it, that you hadn't shared the source of your information with me previously. This is going to be tricky, because I already have 2 books in progress, plus a loaner from the library. I probably won't finish it (I have a knack for picking big books. I still have a couple of pounds of " A People's History of the United States: 1492 to Present" by Howard Zinn, to read. <(Amazon.com product link shortened) />/ 0060838655/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid67175908&sr=1-1&keywordsThe+Peoples+History+of+the+United+States>

I think that there are only a couple of families of raccoons locally. The highway takes a terrible toll on them. I put down chicken wire on the garden beds, which is pretty effective, but has led them dig in the pots in the yard. It's kinda like having kids again. So far, we have gotten along reasonably well.

Lawsuits for toxic run-off mostly.
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<(Amazon.com product link shortened) _1p_1_ti>
Against the Grain: How Agriculture Has Hijacked Civilization
The evolutionary road is littered with failed experiments, however, and Manning suggests that agriculture as we have practiced it runs against both our grain and nature's. Drawing on the work of anthropologists, biologists, archaeologists, and philosophers, along with his own travels, he argues that not only our ecological ills-overpopulation, erosion, pollution-but our social and emotional malaise are rooted in the devil's bargain we made in our not-so-distant past. And he offers personal, achievable ways we might re-contour the path we have taken to resurrect what is most sustainable and sustaining in our own nature and the planet's. -----
I know it doesn't prove anything, but at least I, and Jarod Diamond, aren't alone in this belief.
I can't believe that I found another book to read :O(
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On Wednesday, May 1, 2013 6:42:25 PM UTC-6, Billy wrote:

That so-called "Devil's Bargain" is total bullshit fiction.
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Roy wrote: ...

dude, you just quoted an entire article (and double spaced it) and then added one line?
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On Thursday, May 2, 2013 9:44:34 AM UTC-6, songbird wrote:

Sorry about that....will edit if and when there is another posting.
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Feel free to offer some citations for your responses, otherwise it is just opinion, and you know what they say about opinions.
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And this would be "Permaculture : a designer's manual / by Bill Mollison ; illustrated by Andrew Jeeves", 576 pages, Tagari Publications (December 1988)
Good thing his books are available at the library. They are very pricy.

Warm, wet environments also lead to rapid breakdown of organic material (OM). This is also the reason that healthy soil should only be 5% by weight, 10% by volume "OM". Otherwise, you'll pollute just like chemical fertilizers.

In the book by Charles Mann, "1492", it was noted that the Amazonians used "slashed and burn" agriculture, which was detrimental to the land. Exhausting the laterite soil, they had to move every couple of years IIRC. Subsequent archeology revealed that the Amazonians had a much more complex society that wasn't reflected in their "slash, and burm" agriculture. Prior to the arrival of diseased Europeans, many Amazonians lead an urban life based on great orchards. However, to protect themselves against European diseases, Amazonians left their cities to live in small groups, which survived by subsistent farming.

The soil needs to have organic material in order to hold moisture, and to feed the micro-organisms that compose the soil ecology, which ultimately feed the plants. Whether the "OM" is lost by the rapid oxidation of cellulose in a fire, or the stimulation of micro-organism in the soil from aeration caused by a plow doesn't make any difference. Any consistent loss of "OM" from the soil will reduce it's fertility.

The forests, of course, are the source of freshwater.

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Billy wrote:

been a very interesting read. i think the general information in it is worth contemplation. i'm not sure some of his political or other views are really needed, but how could anyone write such a large topical book like this and not wander off on a few rants here or there? :)
sadly, it really needed a good editor and more proof readers to catch the many textual layout mistakes, miswords, and outright factual errors.
[moles don't eat/store bulbs, but they may shift them a little bit in their diggings -- other creatures that use their tunnels may eat and store bulbs, but that is a whole different thing...]

i think this can vary, if you have an actively growing crop with heavy roots already established then it should be able to soak up extra nutrients quickly.

i suspect it was the fact that the whole area basically collapsed and the entire social setup was likely destroyed too. what remained were some fairly isolated groups and those groups not being a part of the central peoples may have had taboos about copying their ways of terra preta or tree farming. "Look what happened to them! We better do something different."

yes, but the added harm in fire is that some nutrients are lost to the air and dispersed. even those that can float for a long time would end up 70-80% in the oceans. at least with localized decays you have a better chance of keeping trace nutrients in the area.

a big part of it.
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On Thursday, May 2, 2013 9:44:34 AM UTC-6, songbird wrote:

Dudette: I've noticed some really long postings where you answered paragraph by paragraph and they were VERY long. Also the double spacing is how these postings appear on my screen... I do NOT double-space them...blame Google.
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I'm doomed. I'm 10 pages into it, and it is an effortless read. The worst thing about it is the number of books the he mentions as asides. They fall like feathers in molting season. If you liked "Omnivore", then you'll love Against the Grain: How Agriculture Has Hijacked Civilization <(Amazon.com product link shortened) /0865477132/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid68389425&sr=1-1&keywords=Aga inst+the+grain+%3A+how+agriculture+has+hijacked+civilization+%2F+Richard+ Manning>
From Booklist A growing body of somewhat controversial scholarship ties the beginnings of war to the "culture of scarcity" that emerged with the invention, sometime in the Neolithic era and probably in the eastern Mediterranean, of agriculture. Before that, these theorists contend, humans lived as hunter-gatherers who were, far from the common vision of the half-starved caveman, quite comfortable and well-fed, because their diet was both varied and seasonal. The investment of time and energy to grow a few crops led, paradoxically, to both great excess and horrific want; when the crops failed, famine followed among people whose population had swelled beyond the small tribes of the earlier peoples. These theories are regularly bruited about at academic meetings, but rarely are they the subject of popular writing (Daniel Quinn's 1992 novel Ishmael constitutes an exception). Manning brings theory to life with well-crafted essays that cover such diverse subjects as the Irish potato famine and the controversy over bioengineered plants. Readable and well-researched, this book unsettles as it informs. ===== I have a sinking feeling.
Tomatoland : how modern industrial agriculture destroyed our most alluring fruit <(Amazon.com product link shortened) ng/dp/1449423450/ref=sr_1_1_title_0_main?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid68390807&s r=1-1&keywords=Tomatoland+%3A+how+modern+industrial+agriculture+destroyed +our+most+alluring+fruit>
Looks like it is good too :O(
The Whole Soy Story: The Dark Side of America's Favorite Health Food by Kaayla T. Daniel <(Amazon.com product link shortened) f=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid68391029&sr=1-1&keywords=The+whole+soy+sto ry+%3A+the+dark+side+of+America%27s+favorite+health+food+%2F+Kaayla+T.+Da niel.>
Too early to tell. The writing seems a little pedantic to my taste, but all the elements for a good, corporate conspiracy are here.
I think I'm running out of bookmarks.
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Billy wrote:

...
haha. what year was it published?
i'll put it on the list.
Tomatoland is already on it.
i think you'll enjoy _Debt_, the first 5,000 years by Graeber.

i'll add it to the list too.
...

:)
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North Point Press, 2004., according to the library. North Point Press; 1st edition (January 13, 2005) according to Amazon.

534 pages, huh? I'll get you for this, bird.
Maybe I could interest you in "Animal Factory: The Looming Threat of Industrial Pig, Dairy, and Poultry Farms to Humans and the Environment by David Kirby <(Amazon.com product link shortened) 004IK9EJQ/ref=tmm_hrd_title_0?ie=UTF8&qid68423484&sr=1-1>
It practically reads itself,honest, and is only 512 pages.
or The Shock Doctrine: The Rise of Disaster Capitalism by Naomi Klein <>(Amazon.com product link shortened) 7999/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid68423694&sr=1-1&keywords=Shock+Doct rine
Who knew Milton Friedman sold Neo-liberal economics to Russia, China, and the Chilean dictator, Pinochet?

and I still have a pound or 2 of " A People's History of the United States: 1492-Present", by Howard Zinn to read. Oy.
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Billy wrote:

:) it is another interesting read, i think he has a pretty good grasp of the topic.

harhar! it sounds too much like books i've already read (how much different from _The Omnivores Dilemma_ is it?)

any history of the WMF could make almost anyone weep.
...

still on my list for next winter... i think i'll put tomatoland on that winter list too as i would like to keep going on the permaculture references for a bit yet.
:) much better to have enough to read than be stuck watching tv. i keep the podcast list topped up too when i get times to listen. i have two rainy days forecast... almost done with the first permaculture book by Mollison and then will get to one other of his books that i have on the pile.
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The Gordian Knot solution
<snip>

Against the Grain: How Agriculture Has Hijacked Civilization by Richard Manning <(Amazon.com product link shortened) /0865477132/ref=sr_1_4?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid68981220&sr=1-4&keywords=Aga inst+the+Grain>
I'm about 60 pages into the book (a mere 240 pages).
If you don't care for the murder rate of 20-30%, you probably won't like the complete genocide that the farmers wreaked on the hunter/gathers. Although farming startd 8,000 - 10,000 years ago, the full complement of wheat, barley, sheep, goats, and cows didn't really coalesce into a suite until about 5,600 years ago, near the Caucasus Mountains.They are identified by their pottery which is distinctively marked with straight lines, or as the German anthropologists called them Linearbandkeramik (LBK is the designation for these farmers who spoke Indo-European). Farming wasn't spread by adaptation, but conquest. The LBK farmers made it to the Atlantic in about 300 years, taking no prisoners. The "cave-painters" (Cro-Magnons), hunter/gaterers, last stand was in the south-west of France. The Cro-Magnon's descendants are most likely the Basque, who speak a language like no other.
The book goes on to describe the encounter between the LBK, and the "Scandahoovians", which was a stalemate.
A ripping good book.

Planted a dozen Yellow Banana Peppers yesterday. Instead of prepping in my normal fashion, I've taken to poking a hole in the soil, and then putting on some fertilizer, and then some potting soil, and lastly the plant, with what ever potting soil is necessary to make the ground flush. Today is sunflowers, lettuce, and potting some herbs.
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Billy wrote:

i finished it two nights ago. quick read. i'm not really sure what i think of it. as it is a bit dated and the enemy of popularity has turned from big-ag processor ADM to ag-chem-seed producer Monsanto.

i enjoyed parts of it. i have to conceed the poorer health and starvation of some peoples under the version of agriculture much practiced in the past.
i think the current world is making up for it in some ways, but the question is if it is sustainable, and it doesn't look like it is as most are currently practicing...

i've been digging and burying more shredded bark and wood pieces and then after filling it back in and then topping it off with soil that is actually topsoil (and not clay). into that went about 220 onions of three types and a small patch of turnips.
i was a bit worried by the lack of bees on the blooming honeysuckle for a few days, but they were out in force today. *whew!* we'll be planting tomatoes and peppers within the next few weeks and i'll be finding more spots for beans, beets and peas, cucumbers, squash, strawberries are blooming and the rhubarb is coming along well as are the peas and onions already planted and the beets sprouted days before i expected to see them. the challenge is keeping the melon seeds from sprouting and pushing up so much that they are pushing all the beets out of the ground. i guess that is one way to thin them...
rain due this week. we'll appreciate it. the killdeer are still sitting on their eggs.
busy day today. i'm due for a bit of a snooze.
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