Re: Vertical Farming.

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The sun is one of the safer nuclear reactors, and you can go really low tech with vertical farming. Really low. So low even a Canuckistanian could do it! ;)
http://brittaandrebecca.org/windowfarms/index.html
and the fertilizer is free http://www.flickr.com/photos/37185460@N04 /
R
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Cool, I responded to Katherine's post over at our Transition Ottawa group about those Windowfarms, which I've yet to attempt. http://transitionottawa.ning.com/profiles/blogs/love-the-indoor-gardening-link?xg_source=activity
The 'drink.pee' thing had me worried until I noticed the period between the two words. I'm ok with recycling, to a point. Unsure this is the best way to attract at least some people to recycling, but it does make its point... assuming the end result is... or is that the beginning? Never mind.
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Here's a rhyme for you that I made up just now here in an Ottawa cafe in light of Rico's post's link:
You can eat your cake And then have it too, If you have a stake In eating your poo.
Here're a couple of better 20-year old poems from my site (most for a writing class I took): http://www.sfu.ca/~rmacinty/poemex.htm http://www.sfu.ca/~rmacinty/steppingstones.htm (you may have to scroll this one down a little to read to its end)
I post those also because I was speaking with someone recently about them and their reflection insofar as 20 years later and nothing has really changed: "We" are still jerking around with our environment. I put the we is in quotes because I it's one of the we's that stick in both my and, I suspect, Don's, craw. Elaboration in point:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSa9tyuIdkI
The video is only about 3 minutes long, so you should be able to download it with some patience. Otherwise; in it, Derrick Jensen explains to the effect of how society at large is "toxically"-conditioned to identify with some we's that many, maybe most individuals have little or nothing to do with. An example he makes is in 'their' troops in Iraq and how 'he' didn't know 'he' had troops in Iraq.
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Kentucky-style Deadpan Facetiousness. Mmmmm-mm. Dig in. ;)
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I tried to post this a couple of times some time ago and unsure if it finally went through, so I saved it and here it is:

I posted a reply but it somehow got lost in the aether...
let's try again (if a little different than before)...
We all sleep in the same bed. It's partly a matter of if your success is taking pillows or blankets away from others or they're being pushed onto the floor, and also what you do about it.
Why should anyone be jealous of your success (as you wish to define it for yourself) if it doesn't push anyone on the floor or take all the blankets or otherwise impinge on their good nights' sleep?
I'm talking about empathy, personal and social evolution, and stuff like that.

Never mind the word, then, as, according to Wikipedia (and other definitions I've come across) "The exact definition of communism varies". Let's try to see beyond a mere word's limitations. Here are some quotes to help:
"Heres good advice for practice: go into partnership with nature; she does more than half the work and asks none of the fee." ~ Martin H. Fischer (1879-1962)
"Consequently, resources that have traditionally been managed communally by local organizations have been enclosed or privatized. Ostensibly, this serves to 'protect' such resources, but it ignores the pre-existing management, often appropriating resources and alienating indigenous (and frequently poor) populations. In effect, private or state use may result in worse outcomes than the previous management of commons." ~ Wikipedia, entry from the 'Tragedy of the Commons'
"We're living at a dangerous moment because... 'empire', is in its last gasp, and empire, when it's in its last gasp will do anything to sustain itself... The US does not want to see the indigenous view of water, or natural gas, or oil, or resources in the ground to prevail... I was in a meeting of U'wa people who are fighting oil development in Colombia... and [the way] they talk about oil... [is] completely alien to the western development and corporate development model it just can't be understood even. So as a result, corporations, and US and prevailing western powers, don't think anything negative at all about going in and overpowering that if they can get away with it." ~ Jerry Mander , 'Alternatives to Economic Globalization: A Better World Is Possible'
"...you'd very rarely hear a nonindiginous person use the phrase like 'Mother Earth'... or that buys that idea... or that calls animals and trees brothers and sisters, but that's completely routine [to the indiginous]... that's what we need, of course, are some of those values for the present time..." ~ Jerry Mander
"Our intention in telling this story is... to honour a community that stood up for its rights, sacrificing greatly in the process. Not since the Metis Resistance of 1885 has there been an event as significant as 'the Oka Crisis' in proclaiming and defending Aboriginal rights. This country still has a lot to learn about respect for native people and their communities, and the script does not hold back from portraying the ignorance and racism of Governments and Canadian society". ~ Gil Cardinal, Director, 'Indian Summer: The Oka Crisis'
"The most dangerous man, to any government, is the man who is able to think things out for himself... Almost inevitably he comes to the conclusion that the government he lives under is dishonest, insane and intolerable..." ~ H.L. Mencken
"Control the oil and you control entire nations; control the food and you control the people." ~ Henry Kissinger (When Henry Kissinger was announced to be awarded the Peace Prize two of the Norwegian Nobel Committee members resigned in protest.) "Those of us who belong to the permaculture family have cause to be proud, but not complacent. Work has scarcely begun, but we have a great team of people which increases in numbers daily. To empower the powerless and create 'a million villages' to replace nationstates is the only safe future for the preservation of the biosphere. Let interedependence and personal resposibility be our aims." ~ Bill Mollison, from 'Permaculture: A Designer's Manual', second ed.
"Lastly, Gandhi developed the concept of nonviolent revolution, to be seen not as a programme for the seizure of power, but as a programme for transforming relationships. The concept sits neatly with the observation of the German anarchist, Gustav Landauer (18701919): 'The state is a condition, a certain relationship between beings, a mode of behaviour; we destroy it by contracting other relationships, by behaving differently.' ... In its first decade several themes, theories, actions, all distinctly libertarian, began to come to the fore and were given intellectual expression by... Paul Goodman (191172): antimilitarism, the rediscovery of community, community action, radical decentralism, participatory democracy, the organisation of the poor and oppressed interracially, and the building of counter culture and counterinstitutions (such as new coops, collectives and communes). ... "The collapse of the New Left coincided with the exhaustion of the less well-publicised Sarvodaya (welfare of all) movement for nonviolent revolution in India, led by Vinoba Bhave and Jayaprakash Narayan, which had sought through voluntary villagisation of land to realise Gandhi's dream of an India of village republics. The implication of Sarvodaya for the subject of this book is brought out by the statement of Jayaprakash Narayan: 'In a Sarvodaya world society the present nation states have no place.' " ~ Geoffrey Ostergaard, Resisting The Nation State
"[interview with] Bill Mollison: The first time I saw a review of one of my permaculture books was three years after I first started writing on it. The review started with, 'Permaculture Two is a seditious book.' And I said, 'At last someone understands what permacultures about.' We have to rethink how were going to live on this earth stop talking about the fact that weve got to have agriculture, weve got to have exports, because all that is the death of us. Permaculture challenges what were doing and thinking and to that extent its sedition.
People question me coming through the American frontier these days. They ask, 'Whats your occupation?' I say, 'Im just a simple gardener.' And that is deeply seditious. If youre a simple person today, and want to live simply, that is awfully seditious. And to advise people to live simply is more seditious still. You see, the worst thing about permaculture is that its extremely successful, but it has no center, and no hierarchy.
Alan: So thats worst from whose perspective?
Bill: Anybody that wants to extinguish it. Its something with a million heads. Its a way of thinking which is already loose, and you cant put a way of thinking back in the box. Alan: Is it an anarchist movement?
Bill: ...You wont get cooperation out of a hierarchical system. You get enforced directions from the top, and nothing I know of can run like that. I think the world would function extremely well with millions of little cooperative groups, all in relation to each other." "All political systems that I know of, and most kings, have moved their whole nation to desert. And the things that we saw as most proud the cities and the canals and irrigation and so on are the things that killed their cultures. And it continues, unabated. If people don't seize power back, and make their own gardens, and sit in their own gardens of Eden, then we're all doomed, and the whole world ends in dust." ~ Bill Mollison
"Modern industrial civilization has developed within a certain system of convenient myths. The driving force of modern industrial civilization has been individual material gain, which is accepted as legitimate, even praiseworthy, on the grounds that private vices yield public benefits, in the classic formulation. Now, it has long been understood, very well, that a society that is based on this principle will destroy itself in time. It can only persist, with whatever suffering and injustice that it entails, as long as it is possible to pretend that the destructive forces that humans create are limited, that the world is an infinite resource, and that the world is an infinite garbage can. At this stage of history either one of two things is possible. Either the general population will take control of its own destiny and will concern itself with community interests, guided by values of solidarity, sympathy and concern for others, or alternatively there will be no destiny for anyone to control...In this possibly terminal phase of human existence, democracy and freedom are more than values to be treasured, they may well be essential to survival." ~ Noam Chomsky 'Manufacturing Consent'
"Our relationship with the universe becomes a 'use' relationship. Now that's disastrous... Just like to say to another being human 'you used me' is about as terrible a thing a person can say. Now the planet Earth is telling us, 'You used me.' ...the glory of the human has become the desolation of the Earth, and now the desolation of the Earth is becoming the destiny of the human. From here on, the primary judgement of all human institutions, professions, programs and activities will be determined by the extent to which they inhibit, ignore or foster a mutually-enhancing human-Earth relationship..." ~ Thomas Berry (19142009) 'Evening Thoughts: Reflecting on Earth as Sacred Community'
"Capitalism can no more be 'persuaded' to limit growth than a human being can be 'persuaded' to stop breathing. Attempts to 'green' capitalism, to make it 'ecological', are doomed by the very nature of the system as a system of endless growth." ~ Murray Bookchin
"Only after the last tree has been cut down, only after the last river has been poisoned, only after the last fish has been caught, only then will you realize that money cannot be eaten." ~The Cree People Keywords: Permaculture Peak Oil Transition Network
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Good post. At least the stuff you quoted. :)~
I think that what you're illustrating with those quotes needs to be mathematically modeled and shown to be a Ponzi scheme. Similar to a welfare state predicated on an ever increasing population growth rate.
R
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Thanks, but not the stuff I, myself, mentioned regarding the bed analogy?
I thought that was a fair analogy. :)

Some people are talking about population contraction once peak oil really digs in. Apparently the global birthrate, not to mention other environmental factors, is positively correlated with oil.
As for the ponzi schemes; I didn't filter/edit the quotes/post as best as I could have, but in any case, and coincidentally, I'm currently looking at what might be tempting to call 'natural modeling' of "ecosociopolitical" systems. (But then, maybe nature, itself, might be mathematically demonstrable as a fundamental ponzi scheme? <shrug> One thing at a time.)
Here's a preview, FYI, which "laterally implicates" you, too (otherwise it would be ponzi?):
...Efficasync describes tools used by a more-general type of programmer called a citizen, to write, update, and debug democracies. As mentioned above, this document uses many analogies to the world of computers and programming because of their utility in the domain of self-governance. In this vein, a groups system of governance can be thought of as a computers operating system (OS.) Both an OS and a government have the ability to coordinate activity and delegate resources among the constituent parts of a system. As with all pieces of software, operating systems may be one of two varieties: open-source or close-source. Open-source operating systems allow every user direct access to their copy of the underlying code, so the user can examine and learn how the system works, and possibly fix problems or make improvements, which can then be shared with the group that uses the OS. Other systems, called close-source, restrict this access to an elite group of experts whose profession is to maintain the code. Efficasync was created in the former paradigm, and encourages the investigation of its code by every person affected by its code. It is the business and responsibility of every citizen to know and affect their government... Efficasync is a governing Nomic, where the people governed are the same people who do the governing, by setting-up and changing the rules they live by...
The Biological Metaphor Efficasync shares some aspects of biological systems. Because the meta- graph holds data detailing the development and operation of a system, it is similar to the information encoded in a cells DNA. Just as biological systems have ways check their DNA for damage and attempt to correct any malignant erosion they find, groups governing themselves with Efficasync can introspectively search and modify those graph elements producing unwanted outcomes. Differently however, Efficasync users can apply human reasoning in their intentional selections of mutations (changes) to their code, and perhaps avoid some of the trial-and-error that biological systems must endure as random selection promotes (without empathy) those designless and unfixed mutations that happen to best fit with the environment. Additionally, activating a strand in a braid is analogous to activating a gene in a cells DNA.
In a similar way to how young, higher-ordered biological systems grow and learn ways to negotiate their encompassing contexts over time, which involve the building and storage of mental representations in their nerve centers, Efficasync groups can do similar things with their meta-graphs. Effective governing strategies can be developed and warehoused in the graph as group members observe how their various ideas actually play out in the world. Ineffective strategies can be retained in a meta-graphs archive for educational purposes, or for times that better fit their utility. As discussed earlier, groups can mimic one another by swapping node-sets, like biological entities learning from each other through imitation
Any democracy is ultimately based upon trust. For a democratic group to remain as one, each member needs to believe that their fellow members are honestly working towards mutually-shared goals. Making visible those goals, and how to reach them, encourages a conversation which may build trust. By devoting time and energy to deliberate with one another the issues of their shared government, members demonstrate confidence in their groups ability to take care of itself. By apportioning the power to govern amongst its membership, the group demonstrates confidence in each members ability and judgment to guide the group in a prosperous direction. Critically, for group members to successfully use Efficasync, each must have knowledge of how it works, a chance to put it to work, and the willingness to do the work16. This document offers knowledge of how a self-governed system may work. A people of mutual trust, bound together towards common endeavors by that trust, may provide the chance and willingness this document needs to become a real tool of efficacy. ~ Michael Mussman, 'Programming a Deliberative Direct-Democracy. A Method of Open-Source Self-Governance'.
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Each, left to their own, can make it work. It's when groups with an agenda are unthrottled that chaos ensues. It's not possible to live and not use the resources. Life itself is a product of earth resources, dust to dust and all that. At the root of all of it is laziness, the bane of all humanity.
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wrote:

Government was a direct descendant of resource allocation. Glad to see you're starting to appreciate government.

You mean, laziness like not bothering to trim a few thousand character post when you're just adding a couple of hundred? Yeah, it happens all of the time.
BTW, laziness is under-rated. You're also implying that you would prefer if all people acted a certain way. Isn't that a direct contradiction to your whole people-are-sheep schtick? It takes all types, ya know.
German General Kurt von Hammerstein-Equord in Truppenfhrung, 1933: "I divide my officers into four classes; the clever, the lazy, the industrious, and the stupid. Each officer possesses at least two of these qualities. Those who are clever and industrious are fitted for the highest staff appointments. Use can be made of those who are stupid and lazy. The man who is clever and lazy however is for the very highest command; he has the temperament and nerves to deal with all situations. But whoever is stupid and industrious is a menace and must be removed immediately!"
R
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Lazy can be another word for efficient.
R
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It depends what we mean by government. See my post previous to this. 'Centralized' national government may become a bit of history, but maybe not. It's hard to tell.

Maybe there was a point where I knew what you meant by laziness, but I seem to have forgotten. Could you refresh my memory? Before you do, though, let me just say(/repeat?), that I don't see, say, easy-foraging in a permaculture food forest garden and then hanging out all day as lazy.
On the other hand, I do see people taking more than they need to live (not including saving for times of less) as potentially unethical/ ultimately lazy: Landlifting (landgrabbing) seems the superset of (some) shoplifting. If that's kind of what you're referring to, such as where people are "forced" to "wage-slave" because their land's effectively been stolen by those who then squat on it and do nothing but collect rent and the benefits of wage-slave-labour (and have cops and/or military uphold this state of affairs), then I'm inclined to agree.

To be charitable, I'm unsure where he'd qualify in there, but I heard about this guy just this week:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZAnnvSOEmw

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It's natural. And I wouldn't confuse communal with the slippery notions of communism or attempt to somehow bung the 2 and a 1/2 together to make it "work". Also, a "million villages", each respectively doing their own thing, is hardly what I'd call communism. It seems more like neo-tribalism, or permaculture, or... how about just skipping the labels for now.
Vertical farming is already mentioned as 'food forest gardens'-- a bit of a permaculture concept. I read recently that, if energy descent gets bad enough, skyscrapers/ highrises might be mined for their materials.
BTW, Don'll be happy to know that the nation-state's taking a beating. That could be the "new techno tribe" waking up from its pre-classical- agricultural slumber and rolling up its sleeves. Look out!
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It was a metaphor of course, but no I have never lived communally, but may someday. You? I presume you have and that apparently you got burnt? How so? Do you think it was a problem with the commune or with you, or some sort of combination? One can live with very different people with different philosophies and values and in different ways, many of which might be considered communal, if each being "navigated/operated/managed/run/etc." very differently. We have 'intentional communities' and 'ecovillages' and stuff like that. And many leave "villages" for various reasons, and can find ones that suit them better.
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It's a problem in what context or sense? What was yours? And what was it relative to the larger context? (see also quotes below)

That's where we may be heading at least in part in any event, and that's where we came from-- the tribe-- possibly the most successful ever of our social structures. I imagine there was theft then too, (and you likely functioned as your own "cop" and/or "P.I.").
Your apparent lifestyle seems to have some similarities to the tribe.
Stealing will happen no matter where or what (I see animals doing it over scraps of food all the time), and here's some stuff to consider in that regard:
(From the 'Peak Moment' video, 'Replacing Scarcity With Trust'; and from the documentary, 'The Money Fix'-- both on You Tube if recalled [pardon some missing authors] )
"Our mainstream money system is based on competition, selfishness, greed, individual gain, instead of cooperative values, altruism, good will... The mainstream money system destroys communities. It affects everything in our lives...
Outside the USA, there is a worldwide movement to replace the dysfunctional money system that exists-- all the individual national currencies."
One of the biggest hurdles is people's ignorance of how the mainstream money system works... Mainstream money is issued by banks, and those banks have an agenda... they're giving a public service in providing a medium of exchange which we all use-- we have to use-- but at the same time they have a for-profit agenda. And there's a contradiction there. In fact, if you think about it, the banks issuing money is anti- democratic..."
"If everybody knew the full facts about how money is issued, how it's put into circulation, who is issuing it, how they have power and control over the economy, and over individuals' lives, I think there'd be a lot of very unhappy people around."
~ Francis Ayley, Founder & President, Fourth Corner Exchange (alternative money system), Bellingham, Washington www.fourthcornerexchange.com ---------
"If you're callous to the effects on others, you have a potential to rise. The odds are that you can 'compete' your way up. If you care and are socially concerned about others, you're at a tremendous disadvantage. So I think the competitive dynamic that we have does sort of weed out a set of people for success. But I would say that what it weeds out for success is not competence, not creativity, not intelligence, but callousness far more often." ~ Michael Albert, co-founder 'Z Magazine'
"The nature to which people are able to be social, civilized, sympathetic is quite amazing and it's in contradiction to the nature of the money." ~
"These cultural lies on which our relationship with money rests and is rooted is really governed almost completely by the most insidious and tragic lie which I believe is the lie of scarcity." ~ Lynn Twist, author, 'The Soul of Money'
"So our experience of money as being scarce is an artifact of the money system. In a properly-run monetary system, there will be no scarcity of money." ~
"At the point of view of the corporation-- getting more, getting more and more and more-- that is driven in part by greed, in part by the dynamic of trying to get profits-- capitalism-- but it's also driven by fear, because if you don't do it, if you can't expand faster than the next corporation, they will get research money and they will get marketing money and they will beat you and may drive you out of the game." ~ Gar Alperovitz, author, 'America Beyond Capitalism'
"Species move from competition to cooperation because they discover the economic value of cooperating. It is cheaper, more efficient... All you have to do is look at our pentagon budget and see that a tiny fraction of it would really develop countries that we've been levelling instead... Very much more cost-effective to make friends of them than it is to keep them as enemies." ~ Elizabet Sahtouris, evolutionary biology
"Some would argue that the reason they're unemployed is because they lack the skills or because they don't want to work, and that may be true in a few cases, but in the vast majority, that's not the reason why they're impoverished. They reason why their impoverished is because you have this scarcity of money." ~
"If you have an economy which is generating only a limited number of good jobs, are you surprised that parents feel it's really important to teach their kids how to compete on every level? They want their kids to get those jobs... that kind of response would be to get together and say, 'Hey, wait a second, there's a problem with the structure here...'" ~ Juliet Schor, author, 'The Overworked American'
"We live in an economy which takes 80% of our each new generation and educates that 80% to obey orders and to endure boredom, and stifles their creativity, and stifles their capacities, and curtails them. They're systematically crushed by a system which does what? Which fills slots, and 80% of the slots need people who just do rote tedious repetitive labour at least at work, and therefore are acclimated to doing that." ~ Michael Albert, co-founder 'Z Magazine'
"I mean, you could say; 'You know what? This is a terrible job. I don't want to do it. It's a free market. You have total choice to not show up under these terrible conditions. At the same time, if you don't-- little problem here-- you're not going to eat, and your family isn't going to eat. And that's why people do it." ~
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I co-owned and/or shared many things with family and friends, but that's practically a given for me. But I've never lived in what some might call a commune or ecovillage. Not yet. Nevertheless, I might one day, and do have strong intentions of eventually moving to and living(/"retiring") in a relatively small community. My favourite town in Canada is Halifax, BTW, and I've lived in smaller, and preferred them all over the larger cities I've also lived in.
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Whose house is it, yours? If so, then of course I'd be subject to your requirements for guests, if mine for you for hosts. If they mesh, then we're good to go. :) But maybe you're ok with cleaning toilets all the time, and getting all the food, etc., while I'm there, because maybe I do a good full- body massage every day, am willing to fix your roof's leak, and/or happened to locate and bring over a rare ethnic edible you've been craving, like that durian fruit.
OTOH, if we 'shared' a house (so we're not guest/host anymore), then we'd hammer things out for mutual benefit-- negotiate, cooperate, compromise, doing our fair share, etc.-- or we'd get our own houses.
I'd be fine with cleaning toilets (assuming others are taking special effort to hit the bowl or failing that are sitting down to do it all ;) , doing the dishes and splitting the food costs, etc., and would ask others in the home to do their fair share as well. Many need reminding and clarification too. When things are fair and reasonable, then I suspect that most people-- the overwhelming majority-- act accordingly.
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We're talking about a village community yes? Then I'm the "owner".

How about just telling them not to drink all the beer next time or there's no next time? Or getting to know them better before you invite them over? In relationships that require trust, there will always be an element of risk... but a good part of the question seems how you manage it.

It's my own personal experience (where research may confirm as the most likely as well). Maybe to you, through on your own lenses-of- experience, my glasses appear rose-coloured.
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Warm Worm> wrote:

Think. What sort of person would use another persons stuff without permission? A thief. This is an inherent flaw and cannot be fixed, but can be prevented early on in the development phase of early childhood. Absent that, you will never *change* a 20 year old thief and make him become moral, the mold has already been set.
Or getting to know them better before you invite

!ka-ching! Yes, careful screening up front is the key to weeding out the ne'er do wells. This is the purpose of dating, by couples, but most people don't pay attention to the obvious signals. Thus, 50%+ of relationships fail.

After the fact? That is called *damage control*. The management part comes into play when the relationship is developing, not after.

We never know how much we don't know.
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I saw one yesterday, then saw another one today. I think they need to assign a task force to investigate. Hoe's holding hands and walking down the street mouthing all up and down on each other. Yesterday they looked like skanks and the ones today looked like bulldaggers. Whats this world coming to? heh
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Careful there Ken, Don'll think you're serious, despite the winkie. ;)
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