Sensitized to formaldehyde/need workbench

[Phisherman]

Try one made in the USA. Then try one made in China. The one made in China slipped off my work and is a rough screw.

[Bill]

Thank you, I certainly will! Bill

[Bill]

Steve, thanks you for sharing your ideas. I just looked at some of these, and I started wondering how SAFE they are for a workshop. Should people be walking around a table saw or bandsaw on rubber tiles or roll coverings (I'm just playing devil's advocate)?

I am also not crazy about the idea of worrying that whether I drop a 2 by 4 on the floor might hurt my floor covering...

I"m not sure what I will do, but more than one person has suggested the "epoxy paint" technology to me. I will explore the options you mentioned.

Bill

[dpb]

IANAD (instead of the usual L :) ) but I'd wonder at least some about formaldehyde being the irritant given the description--I'd think by that time any outgassing has long since ceased and the more likely allergen being molds/dust/etc. from the storage in a shed unless it was a controlled environment which I'd gather it probably wasn't.

Just a thought...

--

[SteveBell]

Those are good questions. I've seen rubber/carpet mats in lots of factory settings for slip avoidance, and I've seen ads for "comfort" mats that look like heavy-duty foam rubber.

As an aside, I quoted a guy $750 to apply a Sherwin-Williams two-part epoxy garage floor paint (with sprinkles) to a new two-car garage. I didn't get the job, because he thought I was too high, but all the painters I talked to said I was too low. Even though it was a new floor, never been parked on, it would require chemical cleaning and power washing; then apply the paint (and sprinkles); then apply the clear sealer. At least three trips for me, and it could easily turn into two days or more if something about the floor was odd.

If you go with epoxy, don't scrimp on the cleaning. I've seen too many floors that peeled.

[Bill]

Well, I feel pretty confident formaldehyde is a problem. The items I previously mentioned were in a somewhat controlled environment --it was in an outdoor "closet" attached to our apartment-which I loosely referred to previously as a shed. Evidently the melamine and plywood hadn't outgassed enough (nothing made with formaldehyde ever outgasses completely). I haven't had trouble being around old pieces of plywood, like those in the small barn I have now. I experienced some shortness of breath in school working with watered down formaldehyde 30 years ago (no dust there).

I bought a Sauder bookshelf, put it in my office and it made me sweat like a mad man (I have numerous lesser and similar examples like that, with other brands of prefab furniture). When I walk into the Mennards or Home Depot, I can "smell" the formaldehyde and I leave the stores with a shortness of breath that last for at least a half hour. This "experiment" has been repeated at least a dozen times. I visited Lowes successfully several times, but on my last trip I walked through their "wood" area -- and bam, same thing. Am also allergic to artificial sweeteners, most processed foods (extracts--malt extract, yeast extract), anything with MSG, fermented foods (such as sour-dough bread), and foods that are cooked too long (they release "free glutamates"), and air fresheners. The number of places I can eat out is extremely limited. Two of my worst reactions allergic occurred after I hand-sanded a piece of melamine--and on a different day, the edges of a piece of plywood.

IANAD either, but not a week passes that research and experiments on this topic are not "forced" on me. Like when I use a bathroom that only has antibacterial soap...(yep).

It is conceivable that that some other chemicial in the glues besides formaldehyde is affecting me. But, for all practical purposes, what's the difference?

What's really worse is that period when you don't know what food additive you have to avoid... Things got serious for me at age 39 (I think the chemicals were always irritants, but I could ignore the symtoms well enough until then).

Bill

[Bill]

If you've followed this thread, then I thought you might enjoy hearing about a brief conversation that my wife and I had today.

We were out driving around shopping, and knowing she had, I asked my wife if she had seen the SawStop advertisement where the saw stops when it cuts into a hotdog....

I mentioned that the salesperson at WoodCraft thought that they were a good idea and I asked her if she thought is would be worth $1000 or so for me to buy a saw with the the Saw Stop safety feature.

Without missing a beat, she said, "You can't even eat hotdogs!". :)

Bill

[Bill]

Wood being unstable, I'm thinking that that these pieces may not lie together as nicely as one would like. I was thinking of using 6 pipe clamps for this (and all) of the glueing. It seems like one could take advantage of the "factory edge down" guidance to assist here. Especially since, by the time everything is glued together, the errors could be added together 8 times. Is the plan to just sand away all uneven-ness with the commercial drum sander later? I've got a 9" and 14" planes now and a 12.5" bench planer. I could put the glued 8" wide by 73" pieces through my bench planer and glue them after that--maybe there is no significant advantage though, huh, since the 8" wide by 73" pieces probably each have their own character (deviations from true-ness). I'd like to think I might finish the jobs with the hand planes, but I'll see what you folks think first. I hope to complete 2 benches along with a shelf or two for them.

By the way, I saw that Lowes has 3/4" pipe clamps for just over $15--best price I've seen.

[Lew Hodgett]

One of the reasons you only glue one joint at a time.

You are goinjg to want to alternate clamps (One up, one down) to keep things in line.

Plan on a dozen clamps.

Not if you follow my glue-up schedule I gave you.

Yep.

Don't send a boy to do a man's job.

You will end up fiddle f**king with those hand tools forever and probably still won't be happy.

$30 spent for drum sander time is the best $30 you will spend on this project.

Have fun.

Lew

[Bill]

Lew, Thank you for answering my questions!

Anyone, Please let me know if you would suggest a book or two that I might find useful. I've begun reading Scott Landis', "The Workbench Book", but I would also be interested in a good one that describes fundamental techniques (such as clamping). It's easy to see, in retrospect, why alternating clamps may be helpful here, but I don't think I would have considered alternating them unless my dry glue-up failed. I've read some, but I realize I have a great deal to learn... I think the fun is in the journey.

Bill

[Lew Hodgett]

Fred Bingham's book, "Boat Joinery and Cabinetmaking Simplified" covers the basics and will cause you to ask more questions.

Forget the boat stuff unless it interests you.

About $20 from Amazon.

Lew

[Bill]

...

I just requested it from my library. Part of my intent was to not have to ask so many questions to the group. I expect that after I look at the book, any questions that I have will be better ones.

I hope for an early 2010 assembly. I've got a co-project of patching, painting and cleaning my garage/"workshop to be" with a concrete grinder--never used one of those before, but they evidently rent them in town at $95/day! :) Based on your last message, I need to plan on buying a few more pipe clamps too (12)...

Thank you! Bill

[Lew Hodgett]

It's a great book and very informative in a down to earth way.

Better than what?

You have had some very good questions.

Sounds like a total PITA project.

A suggested new project, a 4x8 general purpose table which I found to be absolutely indispensable,

Start by building a 4x8 frame with doubled (sistered) 2x6 and 2x6 interior studs on 24" centers.

(Basically looks like stud wall when complete)

Cut 4, 2x6x32" pieces for legs.

Cut gusset plates about 18"x24" from 1/2 CDX ply. (8 Req'd)

You want these to be triangular in shape along one edge so if you are careful with your layout, you will save a little ply.

These ply gussets get sandwiched between the 2x6 legs and 2x6 table top(stud wall).

As Norm would say, "Time for a little assembly".

Attach gusset plates to stud wall with glue and deck screws, then attach legs to gusset plates with more glue and deck screws.

Use some 1x4 for diagonal braces to keep legs in place.

Next cover table top with doubled 4x8x1/2 ply.

(I used 1/2" CDX.)

Plug any voids in surface ply with filler, sand smooth, then paint.

I used one of these for 10 years. Kept it outside and covered with a silver tarp.

Wouldn't have been able to work without it.

(Your Planer fits very well when you want to use it, at least mine did)

Have fun.

Lew

[Bill]

Remember where this thread started...I've not had luck being around fresh plywood at all. I do need to draw up a design for my bench (es) though.

[Lew Hodgett]

To answer your question, "yes", but I forgot.

Can you paint the stuff or is just being on the same planet with it a problem?

Lew

[J. Clarke]

He said that he's sensitized--being in the same building with it does a number on him.

[Bill]

Well, being in the same room where the untreated material has been sitting is a problem. I had to give away a Sauder bookcase I bought because I couldn't stand to be in the same room with it (a lot of sweating--my whole body, especially my chest, arms, neck). That was a stronger reaction than my usual shortness of breath reaction from mere exposure.

When I actually sanded some plywood and laminate (on different days) the reactions were ones I had to face in bed. I've been to the emergency room for similar reactions twice (from other allergens), and knowing there is not much they do, except tell me that the first number of my blood pressure is about 165, I just "road it out". I was worried though.

It's sort of become personal. I don't want to have plywood, MDF or particle board in my life anymore than I have to. I will be very pleased to build and use a formaldehyde-free workbench! With regard to your question, I wish there were no plywood, MDF or particle board, as we presently know them, on this planet! :) For similiar reasons, I also wish there were no chickens in my grocier's freezer with "broth added", or products with artificial smoked flavoring, but I won't hold my breath waiting for any of these things to disappear. Amusingly, if I had been born 50 years earlier I would not have encountered any of these unnatural allergens. ;)

By the way, ICYAI, in the food industry, the advertising word "natural" has absolutely no meaning.

Bill

[Lew Hodgett]

------------------------------------------------------ I previously asked:

----------------------------------------------------- "Bill" wrote:

Can certainly appreciate your problem as I developed contact dermatitis from exposure to epoxy a few years ago.

It was a bear for awhile.

I understand you can't machine ply, cdx, etc, but what about painted ply surfaces.

That table I described was built outside, lived it's entire life outside with only a couple of coats of paint to protect it.

It could be built without ply gussets but you're stuck with a ply table surface.

Lew

[Bill]

"SteveBell" wrote

I called a fellow (Indiana): $2000 to prep and surface my two car garage with something claimed to be 4 times as strong as epoxy. He said the prep (concrete grinder) is the expensive part when I said that I don't need to have it look like an auto showroom--that I mainly was interested that it be cleaned.

Since then, I learned that I can locally rent a big gas or electric concrete grinder for $95/day (I will call to find out if I should expect other expenses such as grinding disks).

A gallon of epoxy covering from Lowes is about $60 and is supposed to cover

250 square feet. My garage is 450 square feet, so I'll need two gallons. If this sort of product is only "good", then what other coverings might you recommend ? Epoxy "Paint" seems more desirable to me than rubber tiles or roll coverings.

Any thoughts welcome of course.

Bill

[Lew Hodgett]

Cold day in hell when you can buy a gallon of epoxy for $60, closer to $100.

I don't know what those people are smoking, but it is good stuff.

There was an episode of This Old House a couple of years ago where they resurfaced a concrete garage floor.

All I can remember was it was a 2-3 day project and definitely not a one man job.

Cleansed, ground and etched the existing concrete first day followed by coating next day as I remember.

Maybe a Google may help.

Lew