Saw Arbor and bearings one more time

[Genedoc]

The adventure continues with the rebuilding of the "free" Craftsman 100 table saw. My friend brought back the casting with the arbor installed with new bearings. There is a bit of side play to the arbor when the end cap was replaced and it was all together. He seemed to think that it was fine and said the way the clips and bearings work, there has to be a bit of side play to let everything spin. He is a machinery repair person and I am not, but it did not seem to totally make sense to me. When the saw was reassembled and the belt is on, you can't get any play in the arbor. Am I safe to go ahead and complete reassembly or do I need to get the casting backout and try to remove the side play? (no measurement on it, but a few thousands at most). I am not sure how to get rid of the side play so am a bit lost here. Thanks in advance for any guidance and information. David

[Upscale]

There shouldn't be any noticeable play in the arbour. Spin forwards or backwards, but no play from side to side. Any play will transfer into wobbling your saw blade.

[Mike Marlow]

Dave:

I'm not sure I'm following you when you say "side play". I can't get any play in mine with the belt on or off so I can't figure out in which direction you're seeing play. Clearly you don't want any play or your cuts won't be accurate - but that's kind of an "obvious" statement. Is there any play when the blade is mounted and tightened down - without the belt on?

It's hard to compare what's happening in a saw that's got quite a bit of use on it (like mine), with a saw that has brand new parts. Your surfaces are all cleaned up and mine bear the results of years of use. That alone may make mine "feel" different than yours, even though yours may not really have any problem. I'd like to be more specific in the way I attempt to offer advice, but it's been too many years since I had my arbor apart. Maybe this conversation will refresh my aging memory.

[Mike Marlow]

But just think of how much money he'll save on dado sets...

[Genedoc]

Mike LOL at your first reply, and me with a wobble dado already. The play is side to side. It was gettng late at night when we were going to re-install the casting that holds the arbor and when I pushed and pulled on the end of the shaft there was some movement. I did not check with the blade on but not belt, I am guessing that it would have to be there. It got worse, as with the motor and belt on with my new Forrest blade mounted, he said he measured .013 runout, which from what I find in the NG seems like too much. The arbor and the flanges were all clean. So, it may be I got what I paid for, but a lot of sweat and no cuts is a bummer. I am going to have to take it all apart and try to see where the side play it coming from. All suggestions (other then making it an anchor-which is sounding better each day) to true up the abror and blade are appreciated.

David

[arw01]

.013 is too much runout. try rotating the blade 180 and remeasure. Also measure the flange of the arbor itself to see how much is at that point. It needs to be REALLY small there. no more than .002 and preferably a lot less.

On my Jet I can also get "play" when I go reef on the pulleys. And whenever the brake engages on my 2 hp Grizzly upgrade motor the blade is wiggled. I think this wipes out bearings in a few years.

As to your friend, my mother always told me:

Half the doctors graduate in the bottom half of their class. Taking the assembly to a McGuire bearing or somewhere similar and having them do the bearings might be wise. Heck, take the whole thing. :)

Alan

[Genedoc]

Alan, your mother was very wise. After reading Mike's post I went out and took the belt off. In the light of a new day in socal, the arbor will actually "rock" in the casting, the bearings are undersized as far as the OD, I can see the movement with my naked eye. Don't understand why he even assembled it and brought it back. What do I say when I see him in a few hours. Sigh, it looks like a do over and yes, I will be looking for some place that will do it right. Just need to find one in my area that will bother with a small job. Thanks for your reply

David

[Tom]

What are the numbers on the side of the bearings (along with mfgs. name)?

[Genedoc]

Got one of the orginals back today, it is a Norma XF 121 PP, made in USA. I will try a bearing shop Monday taking everything with me. My friend says that the bearings are .002 oversized and a non-standard size. The ones he installed will fall out of the casting into your hand-that explains the run out in part. If all else fails, Sears does list a bearing for around $13. Thanks group for your help-I am getting very frustrated at this point two weeks for a two hour job.

David

[CW]

He should have never installed the undersized bearings. If the outer race is allowed to turn, not only will the bearings fail quickly, it would likely ruin the housing too. I would be real hesitant to let this guy work on anything. Highly unlikely that they would be a custom size on production machinery. Take them to a bearing specialist. They will match them up.

[Frank Boettcher]

The arbor bearing fit should be" press" on the arbor shaft and "slip" in the arbor bracket bore. Slip is not fall out in your hand but should not have to have significant pressure to install them. Mechanical engineering handbook defines (clearance or interference) the fits and I don't have mine with me, but you can get one and look it up.

Frank

[Andy Dingley]

Completely untrue. There should be some end float to avoid locking it up solid, but this is absolutely minimal for ball bearings and there certainly shouldn't be side-float you can feel.

If you have side-float, you will of course "pulll it out" with the belt tension. But your bearing is now only supported over half of the race circumference and runout will be terrible.

The guy's an ignorant cowboy. Don't trust him for any repair work.

[Mike Marlow]

Hey Dave. I'm thinking that this old Model 100 is becoming more of a trouble to you than what you should be experiencing. You being a pretty good guy and all, at least as it seems. I'm taking a little pity on your plight and though I wouldn't do this for just anyone, I'm extending my offer to you to simply take that onerous machine off your hands with no more investment on your part than to pay the shipping to me.

Seriously... stick with it. I've already seen in the other posts that you found the problem with under sized bearings, so it looks like you're well on your way. Get that fixed and then spend the time to align the trunion to dead nuts, (but settle for anything less than .005in) and you're going to be very happy. The Model 100 is a very good saw and it will serve you well for decades.

[Genedoc]

Thanks Mike, I really needed to see a word of encouragement this morning, got the right bearings, reassembled with a new arbor from Sears (original recommendation was to replace because of galling under the pulley). Tweaked the trunions and then looked at the run out (10,000 deleted expletives), the flange is crooked to the arbor! even had to deburr the flange to mount the blade so nothing pushing it off kilter. Yep, I have a box joint wobble cutter. Another friend who is an aircraft certified mechanic (should be detail oriented at least) was over and could not find anything else to account for the error, We used several blades, checked the blades, cleaned everything etc, still over .030 runout, you can see the blade wobble turning by hand. Sears customer service is horrible. You have to buy the replacement with shipping of course, pay to ship the bad part to a center in Dallas and hope you get your credit card reimbursed, what a pain. I am not sure it is worth taking the old arbor to the bearing store as the shaft seems undersized to the id of all the bearings on hand (only wire brushed to clean according to the first friend) so do not know why it is off. This is becoming the summer of cursed power tools starting with a new Delta 14" new X series bandsaw from the woodworking show in May which has been anything but precision and a total pain to get working correctly and still the doors won't even latch half the time. The frustration is that one pass on a metal lathe would true everything up but I can't find a local machinist that will bother with such a small job at a price I can afford being on a fixed income. Thanks for the response, and if I get any more frustrated, give me your geographic location and I will catapult the saw your direction. I thought there was to be a certain pleasure in extending the useful life of a tool, but it is becoming elusive.

David

[Larry Jaques]

On 30 Aug 2005 07:46:16 -0700, the blithe spirit "Genedoc" clearly indicated:

OK, the big question now, Gene: Will you buy another Searz product?

If no, Welcome, Brother. You have just joined hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of us who learned their lesson long ago, most with Crapsman tools and the SDBTRS.*

If yes, your new moniker is "sheeple", as are millions. Hope you're comfy with it and your new cousin, Blob Villa!

*(Searz Daily Broken Tool Replacement Syndrome)

-- Like they say, 99% of lawyers give the rest a bad name. ------------------------------------------------------

Lawyer-free Website Development

[Genedoc]

LOL. Thanks, I needed a laugh. I have not been a Sears fan for several decades. Do remember the saw was a freebie or at very worst a trade for some woodturning lessons so I am not a sheeple. I gave up on Sears when I went through an entire bin of 3/8 x 12 extensions for a socket and could not find one without a bow. The level of service in the stores alone is enough to keep me out. Speaking of Sears and their quality, got the casting out and got a hold of a dial indicator...the flange shows more than .007 runout (wobble) while the arbor shaft has nearly zero. Any bets on the replacement being better??? What is the market for table saws that cuts a 1/4 kerf????? with a thing kerf blade..arghhhh

David, not giving up yet...

[Genedoc]

I mean thin kerf, but "thing" sort of is where this project sits..... "Genedoc" is my online name since I ran into another David Campbell at nearly every woodturning or woodworking site I joined and since I mess about with genetics---well you see.

David

[LRod]

Do I understand that the shaft is true but the integral flange is not? What I recommend on my website (see it for Craftsman saw upgrade info) and did at one time was put the saw back together (without a blade, washers, or nut), fire it up and hold a file flat against the flange. Sort of like a crude metal lathe. Light touch and several checks with a straight edge and a dial indicator and you should be able to true it up acceptably enough for wooddorking.

[CW]

If you're anywhere around Seattle, I'll do it for free. Just so you know, I've been a machinist for 18 years. After the experience with the former guy fitting your bearings, I thought you might want to know something about who your dealing with.

[Genedoc]

Thank you for the great offer, I am in Upland, down in SoCal so it would be a stretch. I was raised in Stanwood and will be looking at property in mid Sept. for retirement. My brother was a machinist in one of the Seattle shipyards for years. For the other fellow it is still a mystery why he even put it together, but it is not worth losing a friendship with a fellow church member over. Someday it will all be running and not toooo much cost associated with it(I hope). Thanks again for the offer of truing it up.

David