(I wrote, but Tanus doesn't have the ability to quote me properly
Backpedal noted. You pretend to defend chinese imported toxins until
confronted with facts. Thanks for verifying that.
OK, so tell me specifically which recalls on productrecallwatch.com
aren't accurate. Because, if they're wrong, it's not the fault of the
messenger (me) but, the fault of the reporting entities (various). Show
your work. Or just admit that you got nothing, which anyone who keeps
current on the facts will know.
If only your point of view had ANY validity. And yet it doesn't. And
yet you defend it. Why do you try to help people trying to kill me, my
kids, and my pets?
Not to start a war but you state that "we give you specs" how did you
determine the exact specs that the Chinese were given? Is this
information available on the Web?
I ask this because my experience in dealing with the Chinese is that
they do meet the specs - right to the letter. If your spec is "paint
it red" then they paint it red with the cheapest paint that they can
locate. If you say "it must pass a protein check using the XYZ test"
then it will.
But if you say "paint it red" using a paint with the following
constituents - AND NOT CONTAINING ANY OF THE SUBSTANCES ON THE
ATTACHED HAZARDOUS CONTENTS LIST" then that is exactly what you will
get, but it may very well cost you more money.
Since this is a metal working group let me give you another example:
All over Asia are machine shops (what we used to call job shops) and
every one is equipped with Chinese machines. Lathes, milling machines,
grinders, you name it. And every one of these machines is equal in
quality to the American made machinery that I ran for many years, but
you don't see this machinery in the U.S. because nobody wants to buy
it - it costs too much. What everyone wants is the cheap Chinese junk
from Harbor Freight. So that is what is what the Chinese sell to
Harbor Freight - cheap junk that you can't find in most Asian
countries because no professional shop here will buy it.
In short, "you want cheap - we got cheap"
from address for reply)
Bruce, you said something very interesting and something that makes
sense to me.
What I do want to know is, how come those quality chinese goods are
not seen in the US, as much as they deserve to be seen.
I mean, if I could buy a quality new machine for, say, 60% of what a
new US made machine costs, I personally would do it. (assuming that
support, etc is also available).
Frankly I don't know, but I can say that after perusing the pages of
Harbor Freight I've seen none of these types of machines offered for
sale here. The multi function mini machines are available but rare. I
believe they are of European manufacture.
Do a search on Alibaba and see what is available, I think you will
find it enlightening.
Regarding support I can't comment on what is available in the U.S. I
suspect that it is a factor of who is the agent/supplier, but In Asia
all machinery comes with guarantees and at least parts support.
from address for reply)
Of course. The specific chemicals spec'd for aqua-dots, for instance,
and the chemical substituted, have been widely published. And each of
the toy manufacturers has _claimed_ that lead paint was substituted for
the specified paint, even to the point where the initial batches were
made to spec, passed QA, and then the cheaper lead paint was substituted
for later production.
Eve if they have to put phenols in a food product, which will kill
whatever eats it?
Yes, in theory, but in the case of this example, the spec was not
followed. I'm kind of surprised that people who haven't followed the
issue are springing to the defense of China on this one because, it's
really not a supportable point of view.
Cheap is fine, if that's the spec. If the spec is "Use this polymer
which doesn't metabolize into a drug that will induce coma if eaten",
and they use one that does, because it's cheaper (yes I can provide
cites), then THAT is a problem. And that's what they did in this case.
And continue to do at every opportunity.
THAT, is the problem.
Im fascinated by the fact the buffoon thinks that the end user or
retailer is supposed to act as the QA department of a manufacturer
3500 miles away, and with 3 degrees of separation.
As a former QC tech for a US factory, one of my tasks was to inspect
incoming shipments using random samples to determine if they did
indeed meet specifications. The shipments came from more than 3500
miles away, with many degrees of separation. One of the things we
checked was chemical content of the paint. (More specifically, we
checked for certain banned compounds and elements.)
That's not idiocy. It's responsible standard operating procedure. Or
at least it was, fifteen years ago.
Are you telling me that factories today aren't inspecting their parts
Of course not. It's also not the topic of discussion in this case.
The factories, are in China. And if they're inspecting 'em, the same
people putting lead paint on the toys are the ones "inspecting" for it.
Mattel or whomever then imports it, obviously without checking it.
Yeah, they share the blame and are the only entity we can actually
legally do anything about, but the ultimate blame belongs to the people
putting banned substances in the products in the first place.
We're not importing toy parts, we're importing toys, packaged and ready
for the store shelf.
As has been pointed out, the distributors should be inspecting those
toys even if they're "ready for the store shelf"
You can blame the Chinese factories all you want. They deserve it. But
unless I misunderstand you, it seems you want to place no blame at all
on the parent companies who are taking them, without any inspection,
and placing them on the store shelves.
In my factory, we shipped out many things "Ready for the shelves" and
we sometimes got shipments returned because of something somebody
found in an inspection. Sometimes it was our fault, sometimes it was a
My point is that those toys should have had a better final inspection
from the people that bought them. Part of the blame goes to the
customer. Not all, but dammit, our people got sloppy too. You're
supposed to keep better tabs on your suppliers than that.
Yes. As I've said several times, both here and on the website I built
to show how bad the problem is, productrecallwatch.com . It downloads
RSS feeds from the CPSC, FDA, DOT, and several other government sources.
I haven't done this week's rundown yet but, dozens of products just last
week with lead paint. From China.
Yes, you are misunderstanding me horribly. I've been quite clear that
the importer is the only one who we can legally do anything with and
they share some of the blame. I have also been quite clear and
consistent that the factories choosing to use toxins in products made
for the US, are doing so intentionally and are ultimately to blame.
Mistakes are also your fault. Whose else would you pretend they are?
Seems to me, the culture is "profit at any cost to the customers, and
apologize if we get caught". That is disgusting, but dozens of items a
week? It is hard to come to any other conclusion.
BULLSHIT. The lead shouldn't be in there in the first place. This
isn't a surprise to the factories deciding to use it.
That is not an excuse for using lead paint. That is not an excuse for
using 1,4-butanediol (metabolizes into coma-inducing drugs if swallowed)
in a childrens toy, instead of the 1,5-butanediol that was specified. A
Chinese factory decided to use the cheaper chemical, despite the fact
that it's not safe.
A factory in China decided to use lead paint on decorations:
What spec do you pretend could possibly be "misinterpreted" which could
lead to someone thinking putting lead paint in direct contact with food
is a good idea?
It's time that the US revokes China's "most favored trade nation
status". Trade _partners_ do not intentionally poison the children of
their customers. Pretending it's a mistake or anything other than a
consious decision based on greed and malice. Which motivation is it?
Are you trying to save a few pennies, or is your primary motivation in
trying, intentionally, to harm the generation of Americans which may
very well go to war with China?
Two of the major recalls were of toys sold by Mattel. They are not a
retailer and yes they bloody well _are_ supposed to act as the QA.
Several were from Toys R Us, which is not some neighborhood shop,
they're a very large franchise operation with centralized purchasing
and they also should bloody well be making sure that what they are
selling in their stores does not violate the safety laws. Jo-Ann
fabrics the same way.
Put it this way, if you bought a saw from Sears and it threw the blade
at you, would you be angry at Sears or would you be angry at the
Chinese because in your opinion it wasn't Sears' responsibility to
perform quality control on the products they sold?
No, idiocy was Mattel failing to ensure that what was sent to them was
what was ordered.
Amen. Buffoon indeed. 35 miles away or
3500 miles away. Makes no difference.
Importers are responsible for QC. But as
I indicated in another post, I had used
the term retailer when I should have
If I buy something for resale, then resell it to someone who is
injured because of something intrinsic to the product, whose fault is
If the product met my specifications, it's my fault because it was
manufactured to my specification.
If the product didn't meet my specifications, it's my fault because I
didn't insure that what I received was what I ordered before I resold
it. True, I may have recourse to the supplier, but that's not my
customer's problem. His beef is with me.
What's so hard to understand about that?
Yes when the manufacturer is paid to do it. Boeing is paid to provide
the airlines with quality airplanes. You think the airline taking
delivery just puts the plane in service without having their mechanics
go over it?
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