Plane Parts?

[Bob Moos]

I got my first plane a couple months ago. A Groz #5 bench plane[1] from Woodcraft. I figured this was a good item to learn with and could get me started. I also got a granite slab for sharpening and proceeded to tune it up the best I could. After some work using the Scary Sharp method[2] and flattening the bottom/bed/sole, frog and cutting iron I think I got it working pretty well.

To learn to use it, I was mostly just running it over the edges of scrap. As I would do this, I would notice after maybe 5-10 passes that the edge of the work would no longer be square to the face. It would now be angled to the right a few degrees. I'm right handed and would stand to the left of the board, clamped in a vise with the edge up. Initially I thought this was just a matter of me not having the right technique and perhaps putting too much pressure on the plane in the wrong way.

As I was looking over the plane recently, I noticed the bottom/bed/sole of the plane did not appear to be square. I don't know if it was like this when I first bought it, or I managed to get it out of square when I was flattening it. Whatever the case, I think I've figured out why 5-10 passes of the plane are causing the edges of my wood go out of square. :)

I'd like to fix this plane if I could, but given that it was only $45 to begin with, I'm not interested in spending more than about $20-$25 to do so. The thought occured to me that a machine shop might be able to square this up on a mill, but they'd probably want more than I'd be willing to spend to have them do it.

The next thought I had was to find some kind of replacement bottom/bed/sole. I found Bob Kaune's site[3] online and it looks like he might have what I need with the bed and frog from a used Bailey No. 5 Plane[4] for $25.95.

Some questions:

o) Would I be able to transfer the bulk of the parts from my #5 Groz to this Bailey #5 bottom/bed/sole?

o) Has anyone dealt with this vendor before? What was your experience (good, bad, ok)?

o) Any other places for parts you'd recommend? NOTE: I'm not interested in eBay--I just want to buy the part(s) I need, not dick around bidding on stuff.

Thanks!

[1]: I can't point you directly to the information, if you go to this URL and then search for "Bailey No.5 Plane" it should take you to the specific bit I'm talking about. There's also a picture of what's being sold at this URL:

[CW]

Doesn't "appear" to be square to what? The only thing that I can tell for sure from your post is that it DEFINATLY wasn't square to your board when you were planing, which is the only thing that matters. Yes, your first thought was right. It's technique. Tilting right is classic for a right hander. The plane doesn't know what is square, that's up to you. One other thing you might check that would make the problem worse, but not be the whole cause, is how evenly the plane cuts from side to side. Try planing a board that is wider than the plane. Adjust the lateral adjuster until it is cutting evenly across the full width.

[Tom Dacon]

Bob, the chances are pretty good that it's not the plane that's causing the problem.

It's not easy to keep a hand plane square to the board unless the surface is wide. You have to work on your stance and the movements of your arms, and it takes a while to start getting the results you're after. There are a couple of mechanical things you can use to help out, but nothing does the job like lots of practice, coupled with a lot of thought about your stance and approach to the piece you're working on.

Stanley used to make a plane attachment called a "jointer gauge" that you could use to keep the plane sole square to the piece (or actually at any angle you wanted). You can often buy them used from the antique tool venders (Bob Kaune often has one on his web site), but I don't know if it would fit your Groz. Lee Valley makes one that would work on just about any plane, and is held on by strong magnets. It isn't adjustable for angle - only helps you plane square edges.

If you're using a block plane, you can just take a small block of wood that's square, and hold it with one hand under the sole on one side, pressing the side of the block up against the side of the piece you're planing. A little hard to describe, and difficult to do with a full-size plane because both hands are engaged already, but if you saw a drawing it would be obvious. Look around for a book on hand planes and you might see that technique illustrated.

I don't think I'd spend a lot of money on your Groz. Like you said, it's a starter plane. Use it to develop your technique and to help you decide on what sizes of planes you're likely to want in your toolbox. Later on, you might like to buy some old Stanleys from the old tool vendors, or you might like the new planes from Lee Valley, or (be still, my heart) some of Lie-Nielson's lovely pieces.

But above all, practice, practice, practice.

Tom Dacon

[Tim W]

You need to deliberately plane the wood square. If you just blindly move the plane backwards and forwards it doesn'r do it.

Tim W

[lwasserm]

In article , Bob Moos wrote: As I was looking over the plane recently, I noticed the bottom/bed/sole

I'm not quite sure what you mean when you say that you flattened the bottom of the plane but it's not square. If the sole is resonably flat, but not square to the sides of the plane, it would still be easy enough to plane a square edge. Lots of planes are slightly out of square in this respect but can be used to plane a good edge or face of a board.

When you look at the bottom of the plane, is the edge of the blade parallel with the sole of the plane? This can be adjusted with the lateral lever.

IME technique and frequent checking are the most important parts of planing a square edge. If you check frequently as you plane the edge, and adjust as required, you can get a good straight and square edge, with minimal wood removal. It does take a little practice but it's not really that hard to master edge jointing with a plane.

One thing (I believe I saw it recommended in Garret Hack's Plane book) that helps me: sharpen your blade so it is slightly convex. As you are planing and checking the edge for square, you will be able to make corrections by shifting the plane so that most of the cutting takes place towards the side of the blade that is angled in the direction you need to compensate.

As far as parts interchanging, while many planes are copies of Stanley designs, even Stanley used more than one frog and bed design over the years for their Bailey planes, plus the Bedrocks are totally different there as well. (Although the current/most recent Bailey frog design is by far the most common)

My advice would be to try the Groz some more (I'm not familiar with that brand so I can't comment on quality) or just buy a used Stanley Bailey. Jacks and #4s are extremely common, you shouldn't have to pay more than $20-25 or so to get a good one; it will require tuning but so do most new ones.

[JeffB]

There's no indication (yet) that anything is wrong with the plane. When you say "bottom/bed/sole of the plane did not appear to be square" - what do you mean?

1) The blade does not protrude evenly from the mouth of the plane? Just adjust the blade... 2) The sole of the plane is not square to the one or both sides? This is typical of inexpensive planes, and only matters if you are using a "shooting board". 3) The sole of the plane is twisted/warped - i.e. not flat? Then your parts question is relevant... 4) Something else???

[Michael Faurot]

That looks good, to me.

This is what I thought was going on. I put an angle finder/protractor[1] against the left side and bottom, and then the right side and bottom. In both cases it said 90 degrees. Now the angle finder/protractor I was using may not be the most accurate out there, but it was enough to convince me that what I was seeing (described below) was not actually related to the squareness of the bottom and sides.

I don't think so.

What I think had me going was the way the sole was cast. I tried to take a picture of this, but I couldn't get a decent enough shot to show exactly what's what. So I'll try to describe it. Imagine the plane is sitting right side up on a table top. The back of the plane is near the edge of the table top, such that you can squat down and look at it eye level. At the very back of the sole, the casting is angled a little bit such that the left side is higher and thicker than the right.

At any rate, with all the other tips people have posted, it sounds like my problem is in fact technique and not necessarily hardware.

Thanks!

[1]:

[Michael Faurot]

Thanks. I'll give this a try and see if I need to make adjustments.

[Michael Faurot]

I believe that to be the case now . . .

I have been working on that. I sight down the edge after a couple of passes, periodically flip the board around (when the grain permits), concentrate on where my hands are, how I'm standing etc. As you say, "nothing does the job like lots of practice." Fortunately, I have lots of scraps to play with. :)

I believe I know which device[1] you speak of. That sounds like it might be a good suggestion for me.

I believe I get the gist of what you're saying. I'll have to give this a try.

I also have a small block plane. I can't recall it's "number" but it's 7" made by Buck Brothers, purchased at Home Depot. Oddly enough, when I've used this plane to surface the edges of stuff, I haven't really had a problem with the edge/face going out of square. This is one of the reasons why I had originally thought there was something wrong with my #5 Groz.

When I first started looking at planes, the stuff I looked at was from Lee Valley and Lie-Nielson. And I thought to myself, "If they all cost that much, I'll just stick to power tools." So when I discovered that there were less expensive planes out there I could start out with, I decided to try the Groz and see what happens. I have actually used my #5 Groz to do some real work and if I only need to take one or two passes against the edge, I've been using it as it really leaves a wonderfully smooth surface. I think my next plane will be one of those inexpensive Buck Brothers smoothing planes (I believe it's a #4 bench plane) that goes for about $25.

Thanks. I'll be doing that! :)

[1]:

[CW]

[Prometheus]

Another helpful technique I like is setting two boards of the same width side-by-side to plane the edges of each at the same time. It's not only good for supporting the sole and helping to keep the edges square to the face, but it also means that even if things get a little out of square, the error will be mirrored on each piece, and the joint should still mate properly when one piece is flipped end-to-end (at least that's the case when jointing to make a panel)

>

[dingbat]

Why ignore all the regularly posted advice here to buy an eBay pre-war #4 / #5 for peanuts?

If you have a Groz, Kunz or Anant there's just no point in doing anything to it. Although it's _possible, it's certainly not cost effective.

[JeffB]

Technique, practice, and frequent measuring are required to freehand really square edges. Examples of other things that also may help...

assuming the sole is square to the bottom... a jointer.

The basic design of a plane is for flattening/smoothing a surface...