OT:/ Fascist coup nearly complete...

[Robatoy]

Just unbelievable. And nobody's doing a thing about it....

[Tom Veatch]

Tom Veatch Wichita, KS USA

[Tim Daneliuk]

the terminally lazy, the criminal class, and the generally irresponsible, this would be known as ... a "good social policy". Welfare is morally wrong, regardless of the recipients.

This "crisis" has a root cause that has nothing to do with the insurance companies, the banks, the mortgage companies, the rich, the oil companies, or any of the usual hated classes. This "crisis" was induced by profligate government spending and the consequent fiscal policies inflicted thereafter to try and "fix" the problem.

[Han]

Tim Daneliuk wrote in news:sk1hq5-imn1.ln1 @ozzie.tundraware.com:

Tim, you're out of touch, or using an ostrich's view (head in sand). Didn't we have just about 8 years of Republican, fiscally "restrained" government?

IMO, the crisi is due to bank and financial institution greed and (de facto) deception generating uncontrolled and excessive debt, in large part hidden by a Ponzi scheme of insurance and overvaluation, where rating agencies get paid by the banks whom they rate, the banks who earn commissions on bigger and bigger loans they write and then sell to investors who get paper that is rated AAA because 1 in 100 of the underlying mortgages is AAA, while the rest is sludge. In fact, an underrregulated industry, financed and overseen by rich Republicans (tongue in cheek).

[Tim Daneliuk]

No. We had a President who failed to control spending and who accommodated a big spending congress. He was a Republican, but had no fiscal restraint for the most part. Speaking of out of touch, you may wish to know that he majority in Congress - where appropriations actually take place - is, and has been for some time - Democrat.

You're entitled to your opinion but that doesn't make it fact. What you've just written is a repetition of a very tired class warfare manifesto peddled by the left for years. It wasn't true years ago, it still isn't. The so-called 'crisis' is the inevitable payday due when an entire nation decides to go into debt and never pay it back. The "greediest" portions of our economy are not financial or insurance institutions. The biggest greed you will ever see is the general public demanding benefits they've never paid for nor earned and insisting it is their "right". Our nation is in financial trouble because the rank and file citizen is a moocher and sees no problem looting their neighbor's wallet to get what they want.

>

[Han]

Tim Daneliuk wrote in news:501iq5-ds62.ln1 @ozzie.tundraware.com:

Agree. It is the individuals in charge and the regulators who let them do these outrageous things.

Is that in principle any different from letting the CEOs and lobbyists rob the common citizen? Neither is "good". What is good is helping your fellow citizen fulfill their potential, and punishing those who rob. In a well-functioning society providing for some is much better than stomping them into the ground and fomenting terrorism of one kind or another.

[Tim Daneliuk]

But there are way more rank and file citizens than there are dishonest CEOs and those citizens do way, way, way more economic harm.

Not at a point of a gun. It is NOT the government's job to help people fulfill their potential. It is the government's job to keep us free. No more. Having a gun stuck in my ear to pay for social do-gooding is a crime no different than any other kind of theft.

[Han]

Tim Daneliuk wrote in news: [e-mail]:

It is clearly the dishonest CEOs and their ilk who have caused this crisis or whatever you want to call it.

Where is the point of a gun? It is the job of the government to afford us the opportunity to fulfill pour potential. Social do-gooding is a different thing. Bridges and roads to nowhere come to mind.

Thank you for making my point.

[Tim Daneliuk]

It is, huh? It's not clear to me that this is the case. It is clear to me that there is a whole ecosystem of perverse incentives, rewards, and protections all, at their core, sanctioned, or even run by ... the government. We could stop all this right now by refusing to have a single tax dollar put up to protect any of the failing companies. The consequent lack of credit liquidity would have folks like you screaming about how sad it is that Johnny Paycheck can no longer afford to own a home. Then you'd want to protect poor Johnny with Federal money. No system which uses tax money to interdict in the private sector (other than in matters of fraud, force, or threat) can ever be just or proper.

Try not paying your taxes and find out how big the government's gun is.

Baloney. This might be your desire, but it is NOT an enumerated purpose or power of the US government.

I was think more along the lines of retirement, education, welfare, farm subsidies, and a host of similar things for which the Federal government has no enumerated power to act, but does so anyway - unlawfully, BTW, but with the happy consent of the thieving citizenry.

Those are not remotely the only options. The best society ever created by mankind came from private wealth creation, rule of law, equality before the law, and minimal government intervention in people's lives. This gave us unprecedented science, medicine, lifespan, quality of life, and free time. But that's not good enough for folks who see the world the way you do. Until *everyone* has the exact same thing, you're not happy. Well, it's not possible to give everyone the aforementioned benefits - they have to earn it for themselves. When they don't, your fairy tale land of "equal" ends up becoming "equally lousy for everyone."

[Scott Lurndal]

Under two years. And GWB has vetoed _EVERYTHING_ they've tried to do. You can't blame them for this mess, I'm afraid.

scott

[Han]

Tim Daneliuk wrote in news:pikiq5-keh2.ln1 @ozzie.tundraware.com:

That wass my oint: dishonest CEOs, and lack of government regulation.

That would be fine by me. However, other people would get screwed. Is that right? Do you know what they might do then?

I still like my paycheck, but I could do without, I think. Should I care about those who do need a paycheck? Because some aspects of my job just about invite me to quit, were it not for some other people whose job then just might disappear.

I can't follow this reasoning, or lack thereof, so I'll quit here.

[Tim Daneliuk]

I don't blame them alone. I blame FDR and his merry band of Marxists who screwed up a fabulous country with their collectivist trash. The rest that followed was merely a matter of technique with both parties contributing mightily to the aforementioned collectivism.

[Just Wondering]

now waking up after an 8 year mental vacation ..." has already demonstrated so much bias that it would be a waste of time to read any further.

[Rod & Betty Jo]

What were these things that they tried to do and couldn't because of a veto? And how could these "things" have avoided this crisis? Rod

[Robatoy]

Yup... MUCH better to stick your head in the sand (or up your ass, as the case might be) than trying to become aware of others' points of view. The ARE points of view besides yours. Ignoring them doesn't disqualify those points of view as invalid.

Annnnnnd, as you well know, the "Well, my friends..." line is almost a McCain trademark.

If that article has a left bias, how does that suddenly mean that another power grab is okay by you? You should be outraged that yet another brick crumbles into dust.

I have no interest in debating this article, I just wanted to point out yet another way that you're pissing your country and freedom away...as well as your hard-earned wealth. You just got dinged by a $ 7000.00 bill. And now you're willing to sign away the right to challenge the dings which are yet to come?

But you didn't read the article.. did you......

[todd]

By my count, in 8 years, Bush has vetoed 12 bills. Four of those were overridden. So that leaves 8 bills vetoed that were not overridden. Two had minor changes made that were passed by Congress and signed into law. Two concerned stem cell research. I'm reasonably sure those didn't cause any of the financial mess. Now we have 4 left. Two more were the Children's Health Insurance Program Reauthorization Act. I'm pretty sure the lack of passage of that bill didn't cause a near-collapse of the financial market. That leaves the National Defense Authorization Act of

2007 and the Intelligence Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2008. I'd love you hear your analysis of how those vetoes caused "this mess".

todd

[Rick Samuel]

What?! An open mind?? If you have one, someone will surely come along and shovel sh-- into it.

[Robatoy]

LOL.. well, that's how politicians survive. Banners, placards, commercials, all looking for that little crack into which to pour garbage to feed the minds of the unsuspecting public.

[J. Clarke]

While one must keep an open mind, one should not keep a mind so open that one's brain falls out.

[Elrond Hubbard]

"J. Clarke" wrote in news: [e-mail]:

Go here:

click on the song of the same name. But only if you have a sense of humor.

Scott