Ok--the old guys were right about sharpening

[busbus]

Well, I heard what was being said in the recent sharpening threads and realized that a lot of people were very right: years and years ago, before wet paper, before jigs, before everything, there were oilstones and look at the craftsmanship that was performed. That made me realize how, I don't know, stupid I was trying to find some magic pill that would instantly make everything I own sharp without some work on my end.

So I sucked it up and grabbed the old combination oilstone a friend of mine gave me when her father died. This sucker has to be 50 years old and nothing has touched its surface except for the box it was in.

I took it out, put some oil on it, and grabbed a chisel that has been used and abused and attempted to sharpen it on the stone by hand.

No sandpaper. No jig. No, well, nothing. This was the first time I have ever tried this and the results were unbelieveable. I think, no, I KNOW the chisel came out sharper than any I have done in the past. And faster, too. I couldn't stop and I grabbed an old block plane blade and gave that a shot. (I admit I lapped the back with some sandpaper but there was a heck of a divot in the back of the iron.) After an incredibly short time, I had as sharp a plane iron as I ever had before.

I admit it. I was totally wrong. The "old" way was hugely better than any of the newfangled trinkets.

[Prometheus]

Good for you! No magic bullet- just good old common sense, right? :)

[John B]

[e-mail] wrote: snip

I completed my Cabinet making apprenticeship 30 odd years ago and have only used oil stones. Am on my 3rd one. Have never worn one out, just dropped the buggers :(. When the stone gets a bit of hollow in it, find a good lump of concrete and dress it on that. Someone else's Driveway works good :). I thin motor oil about 50/50 with turps. If the stone starts to clog or gets a bit of a sheen to it, just soak for a day in turps, kero or such and it will be as good as new.

regards John

[busbus]

snip

That was going to be one of my questions: what kind of oil should I use? All I had laying around that was at least somewhat thin (doggoned cold weather!) was a can of 3-in-1. It seemed to work well but I don't want to clog the stone up! And on a whim, I cleaned it with some mineral spirits and, after I did, I was wondering if that was okay. Must've been!

Oh, and I really like the suggestion of dressing the stone on somebdoy else's driveway!

[Stoutman]

[busbus]

snip

I heartily agree with you. I am sure the more I practice, the better I will be. And I am absolutely sure my edges aren't perfect and, of course, I don't know how well they are going to stand up to use. All I was trying to say is that this is the way it was done for literally hundreds of years. They must've been doing something right!

I agree that my chisel and plane iron are probably nowhere near perfect but I will say this: after I got over my hesitation and actually DID it, I was done a lot faster because I wasn't spending a good deal of time setting the items in the jog and measuring the the angle and gluing on sandpaper, etc. I just spread some oil on a stone and started to sharpen. And you know what? I actually LIKED IT for the first time ever. It was actually FUN. That was why I went from the beater chisel to the beater plane iron. Now I wasn't stupid! I didn't try this on my good set of chisels or anything I really like or anything, just for the reasons you mentioned.

I do need to practice more. I do need to see how long the edge lasts. I still need to do a lot of things. But I figure if this sharpening thing is more-or-less as easy as it seemed this last time, I will be sharpening more often and keeping my stuff sharper than I ever used to. Maybe that is the measure of consistency in the long run? (Maybe true; maybe not!)

[alexy]

Check out this site.

you have your technique down, it is really a lot faster to sharpen without a jig. Tried this once without too much success, but came back to it when I bought a set of Norton waterstones that included a DVD on sharpening. Would never have bought the DVD by itself, but watched it for kicks. It was Joel Moskowitz (proprietor of tools for working wood) demonstrating the method described in this site.

For this to work, you have to have a well-defined primary bevel. Krenov suggests a small-diameter, slow grinding wheel. If I had a Tormek, I would use that. I have had luck with establishing that primary bevel on a 220 grit water stone, using a jig. (have also done it using the hand method described here, but that 220 grit is tough on the finger tips.)

I like water stones for their faster cutting, but you are right--a good washita or India stone followed by a hard Arkansas should do at least as well.

[Phil-in-MI]

{snip}

I know way O.T.-- But I got to ask anyway.

I got a couple of oil stones from my Dad when he passed away -- And I remember that Norton quite a few years ago sold cans of light "Honing" oil for use with their combination oil stones-- Does anyone know just what was in those cans of oil sold by Norton?

Was it just SAE 10wt non-detergent oil? Or drug store Mineral oil? Was it a scam? All I remember my Dad telling me is to never use old used Motor oil from the car with his oil stones. Don't remember why.

Phil

[Doug Miller]

Because it's dirty.

[Patriarch]

"Phil-in-MI" wrote in news:JO3yh.21345$ [e-mail]:

Norton still sells the honing oil. It came in the 'special' I got when I bought some oilstones at a woodshow a couple of years ago. I don't know what it is, but I have plenty of it.

Patriarch

[fredfighter]

A lot of people use kerosene. I've read that lamp oil is just deodorized kerosene (dunno how they deodorize it.) I've used baby oil (light mineral oil) and lamp oil. I like the lamp oil better.

Good reasons to not use used motor oil include the fine particulates in the oil which will clog the stone and exposure to carcinogens.

[Charlie Self]

Add acid: used motor oil contains acid that is the result of combustion, and is certainly not what you want on your best plane irons and chisels and other tools. That, and the gunk that inhabits the oil, make it less than handy for sharpening. I like a combination: about half and half of WD-40 and 5 weight non-detergent (that's because I had some 5 ND here when I first tried the mix: detergent should also work well, and kerosene or lamp oil also work well to cut the oil. All you really want is something to suspend the particles coming off the stone and the tool).

[Prometheus]

3-in-1 is a good choice- in a pinch, I've even used chainsaw bar oil, but that's a bit thick and a little smelly.

[Prometheus]

Good, very good. I don't sharpen very often, and I have only one facet on my edges.

Far as bevel angle goes- what's the magic number, then? Mine are between 25 and 30 degrees- there is no apparent change in perfomance between the extremes of that range, and a 5* "tolerance" is easy to hit and maintain without measuring tools.

Maybe not- see what you said above. "The only time I tried" There's a touch to it that leads to an "aha" moment- and it doesn't take that long to reach it. You just need to use the existing bevel as it's own guide.

Perhaps this is the difference-

I just had a little flashback of seeing people frustrated with a few tools that seem to have the same sort of abuse hurled at them- sharpening stones, files and hacksaws.

In each of those cases, the natural tendancy is for people to try and shove the tool right though the material is being cut or filed, and to move as quickly as possible to just get it over with. When you sharpen freehand, seat the bevel firmly on the stone, push forward with even pressure at a moderate speed, then lift it up, reseat it on the stone and repeat. Doing it fast just makes it a lot more likely that you're going to rock the chisel and lose your angle. When you're happy with the edge, give the back a quick lapping, and you're off the to races.

With files, they only cut one way- if you take the pressure off when pulling back, they stay sharp a lot longer, don't clog as much, and will file just as fast or faster than going at it like a madman. Exactly the same as a hacksaw. I know that doesn't seem appropriate to the chisel discussion, but it really is- they all get treated the same by people who do not know any better, and if you can master any one of them, the other two are much, much easier.

[John Grossbohlin]

RE the "old guys," I have to assume that you are not talking about me here... though I did write of using the old methods recently. ;~)

...

My boys are learning this. I will not let them use my big stationary power tools (or the handheld power tools for that matter) but they regularly use my L-N saws and planes and other good quality and well tuned handtools. When it's done I'll post some photos of my 9 year old son making his Pine Wood Derby car for next Saturday's race. It's pretty unique in that it is veneered with curly maple and walnut and all the work was done with hand planes and hand saws... He'll make some additional parts on the scroll saw Thursday and Friday. He's no stranger to any of these tools.

John

[Puckdropper]

Prometheus wrote in news: [e-mail]:

*snip*

*snip*

Which way does the handle point? Towards you or away from you?

Puckdropper

[CW]

Norton still sells the oil. Just mineral oil.

[busbus]

I think that is what I have been trying to say: I had an "a-ha!" moment and the flood lights came on. Actually, I accidentally sharpened as you mentioned: I sat the chisel and the iron on the stone using the bevel instead of a jig. I did move slower than I normally do, probably because I was really thinking about what I was doing and trying to get a feel for it as well. I didn't only push forward but, rather, I made sort of figure-8's...is that okay? Not okay?

All I know is that the darn things came out extremely sharp. And very quickly with a lot less effort than it used to take. I think I relied on the jig too much. I also think I pressed down a lot harder before and this time I was using more, I don't know, maybe finesse is the right word. And for some reason, I wasn't all nervous and jittery this time around. It sort of felt right to me for some reason.

Like I mentioned before: I am sure I didn't have the most perfect edge wen I was done but it was better than anything I ever did before and by a large margin. I wasn't frustrated. I wasn't frazzled. I wasn't constantly trying to measure the angle and check the results. "I was one with the chisel" if you may. Maybe I should try the Scary Sharp method again using oil or water. Maybe I could try water stones. Maybe there are reasons to use a jig again...who knows.

But I did learn how to sharpen something and I used the two items tonight just to try them. They cut like a knife through butter. I am shocked, truthfully. How long they will last, I have no clue. How long is long enough? How long isn't? And could this time be affected by the steel they are made from? Absolutely. Do I need more practice? Yes-sir-ree-bob. Will I take the time to practice more now that I have sort of figured it out? You bet. Is that the point? I hope so.

[John B]

Figure 8's and Oval is the method I was taught and used all these years. Figure 8's seem to give the best results, however they do tend to wear a hollow in the centre of stone over time. Life is series of compromises ;)

regards John

[Prometheus]

Serious question, or a troll?

Just in case it's a serious question, you hold the handle towards you, with your index finger extended down the length of the chisel so that it looks like you're pointing at the stone. The goal is to move the chisel as though you were trying to shave a thin layer off the stone with the chisel "upside down" (with the bevel rubbing the stone)