This newsgroup already has postings about receiving the new Lee Valley
catalog. I certainlt love to get mine, too.
But nobody has mentioned receiving the Lie-Nielsen catalog. Hmmm.
They've got several new products. On their web page they show some
extremely nice bench vises (not sure why they aren't in the catalog).
My Lie-Nielsen planes and chisels are a source of pride. So are my
Why? You didn't make them.
I am not trying to be argumentative, but I don't understand why something
that anyone could buy would be a source of pride.
Possibly you have pride in what you can do with them, but couldn't you have
the same pride in what you can do with a garage sale Bailey? (Can you, in
fact, do more with them than a garage sale Bailey? I almost think that a
bailey that required a certain amount of skill to clean, tune, and sharpen
would be more worthy of pride; but maybe I just don't get it.)
I take pride in my wife, home, plane (my 1/2, anyhow), musical
instruments, bicycles, cats, tools, etc... I didn't "make" any of
I also take pride in items I made, like built-ins, furniture, etc...
I make stop blocks, cauls, and chocks, but I don't take much pride in
them, even though I made them. <G>
That is so sad. The stop blocks and cauls of the world help us to so much
good work, yet they are heartlessly cast off into drawers with no thought at
all. That desk and jewelry boxes are highlighted, bragged about, and showed
off to anyone that will look, yet you ignore the stop block that helped you
get there. You, Barry, are one mean SOB. Give them the credit they
deserve. They have always been there for you, just don't ignore them.
Toller (in ZmE6f.10563$ firstname.lastname@example.org) said:
|| My Lie-Nielsen planes and chisels are a source of pride. So are my
|| Veritas planes.
| Why? You didn't make them.
| I am not trying to be argumentative, but I don't understand why
| something that anyone could buy would be a source of pride.
| Possibly you have pride in what you can do with them, but couldn't
| you have the same pride in what you can do with a garage sale
| Bailey? (Can you, in fact, do more with them than a garage sale
| Bailey? I almost think that a bailey that required a certain
| amount of skill to clean, tune, and sharpen would be more worthy of
| pride; but maybe I just don't get it.)
I can see (and do resonate with) both perspectives. I work to be proud
of what I make (and, by and large, I am). I also have tools of which
I'm proud because I recognize that same effort put forth by others.
There's one particular Steve Knight plane in which I take pride even
though I've never been close enough to touch it.
And some few tools manage to transcend utility - they're good art.
DeSoto, Iowa USA
Toller (in 3iN6f.66$ email@example.com) said:
|| I've got a couple of Steve Knight planes I love, too.
| Love I can understand. They are beautiful to look at, to hold, to
| But pride is completely different. Or am I splitting hairs, and
| pride and love are the same thing here?
You're splitting hairs. They aren't the same thing, of course, but in
this context they're at least close enough that you couldn't shine a
light between 'em.
IMO, the best of art shows us something about ourselves that we don't
normally give much thought. When the art happens to be a tool, it
reminds us what we're capable of - and encourages us to grow and
design and build to the highest of standards.
DeSoto, Iowa USA
Let's just say, had I known my words would have been parsed to the N'th
degree, I would have been more careful. My intention in the original
post was to get some discussion going on Lie-Nielsen. I feel that Lee
Valley is over-idolized and Lie-Nielsen is under-idolized. Opps -- I
guess my use of the word "idolized" will spawn a stream of posts about
what that means.....
However, regarding the originalpost, I'll stick by my use of the word
"pride." I know I didn't make the tools it but I did make the money
which bought them and I did do thorough analysis on which brand and
type to buy.
I'm proud of the American Bill of Rights and the Constitution. I didn't
write them and had I lived in those times, probably would not have even
thought those ideas... However, I'm proud of them now.
I must confess, I did not go to the dictionary to check the exact
meaning of "pride".
I don't think that is entirely true. LV has many more product to offer than
LN, thus more reason to search the catalog/web site. LN has a more narrow
product line but does have good quality. .
The LV planes are about as good performing, maybe better $$ value than LN,
albeit they are not quite as fancy looking. Of course personal preference
comes in here too.
There are other stores and web sites that are great value, super service,
etc. LV just has more to offer more people. My wife likes to look at the
LV catalog too because of the household and gardening items, but hardly
every tools at the strictly tool ones. Given the multitude of choices in
the LV catalog, many of us would grab that one first. As a whole, the
average woodworker probably just has more exposure to one over the other.
Good point, Ed. However, even if I compare only those tools both
provide, Lee Valley gets more press. Le Valley, Verita in particualr is
wonderful. However, I think Lie-Nielsen deserves equal billing.....
Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
Never Enough Money (in
| Good point, Ed. However, even if I compare only those tools both
| provide, Lee Valley gets more press. Le Valley, Verita in
| particualr is wonderful. However, I think Lie-Nielsen deserves
| equal billing...
Probably there are more of us who can afford Veritas planes than the
corresponding LN and Clifton planes. LV gets good press here because
they've consistantly bent over backward to ensure satisfaction of this
group and because Rob Lee participates here.
(The same seems to work for McFeelys and Jim Ray.)
That doesn't (of itself) make their products better; but does make
them very much more a part of this community than LN or Clifton have
chosen to become.
Before buying the LV low-angle smoother, my "best" plane was a
beech/lignum vitae plane from Ulmia - who I don't recall ever having
been mentioned since I've been reading the wreck (until this post).
DeSoto, Iowa USA
I don't know about everyone else here, but I'm certainly proud every time I
buy a new LV product. Think about it. It's not an easy thing to examine the
LV catalogue minutely, page by page selecting the toys I want to buy.
Putting everything I want into buy now, buy later, buy when I win the
lottery categories. It's a very careful process and it takes me an entire
weekend. I go into work on Monday morning with my 'buy now' list in hand and
spend the whole day at my desk with the office door locked while I sweat
over my decisions. The rest of the office think I'm in there struggling over
a new business contract when in reality, I'm in a life and death struggle
between leaving in the middle of the day to go and make my LV purchases or
wait for the day to be over so I can head to the LV store.
Then I drive home like a madman so I can play with what I've bought. The
second I open the door to my home I feverishly rip open all the boxes to
examine my treasures.
Let me tell you, it takes great deal of effort to do what I do, it's lucky I
haven't suffered a coronary before this. So, You're DAMNED RIGHT I'M PROUD.
I think this points out that the actual object of the pride is having
made a good choice, be it LN or LV. It's not the result of the choice
but the process, and that can include simply having put yourself in a
position to be able to consider the high end products. When you actually
get the tool in-hand and find that it's a pleasure to use you get the
warm fuzzies and know you did right.
If this is the case then I suppose it matters whether it's possible to
make a /bad/ choice for tools in this price range.
I tend to feel the same way. Things I buy are just things, objects, and I
attach no importance to them other than their normal function. Things I
make myself, however, I take pride in.
I know a fellow who bought a restored 1965 Chevy pickup. He is very proud
of this truck, but I just couldn't take pride in something like that unless
I had restored it myself.
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