This newsgroup already has postings about receiving the new Lee Valley catalog. I certainlt love to get mine, too.
But nobody has mentioned receiving the Lie-Nielsen catalog. Hmmm. They've got several new products. On their web page they show some extremely nice bench vises (not sure why they aren't in the catalog). My Lie-Nielsen planes and chisels are a source of pride. So are my Veritas planes.
Why? You didn't make them. I am not trying to be argumentative, but I don't understand why something that anyone could buy would be a source of pride. Possibly you have pride in what you can do with them, but couldn't you have the same pride in what you can do with a garage sale Bailey? (Can you, in fact, do more with them than a garage sale Bailey? I almost think that a bailey that required a certain amount of skill to clean, tune, and sharpen would be more worthy of pride; but maybe I just don't get it.)
I own a lot of things I didn't make. That doesn't mean I'm not proud of them.
I take pride in my wife, home, plane (my 1/2, anyhow), musical instruments, bicycles, cats, tools, etc... I didn't "make" any of them.
I also take pride in items I made, like built-ins, furniture, etc...
I make stop blocks, cauls, and chocks, but I don't take much pride in them, even though I made them.
That is so sad. The stop blocks and cauls of the world help us to so much good work, yet they are heartlessly cast off into drawers with no thought at all. That desk and jewelry boxes are highlighted, bragged about, and showed off to anyone that will look, yet you ignore the stop block that helped you get there. You, Barry, are one mean SOB. Give them the credit they deserve. They have always been there for you, just don't ignore them.
Just got the catalog in the mail a couple of days ago ... I'd be proud to own a few more myself.
|| My Lie-Nielsen planes and chisels are a source of pride. So are my || Veritas planes. || | Why? You didn't make them. | I am not trying to be argumentative, but I don't understand why | something that anyone could buy would be a source of pride. | Possibly you have pride in what you can do with them, but couldn't | you have the same pride in what you can do with a garage sale | Bailey? (Can you, in fact, do more with them than a garage sale | Bailey? I almost think that a bailey that required a certain | amount of skill to clean, tune, and sharpen would be more worthy of | pride; but maybe I just don't get it.)
I can see (and do resonate with) both perspectives. I work to be proud of what I make (and, by and large, I am). I also have tools of which I'm proud because I recognize that same effort put forth by others. There's one particular Steve Knight plane in which I take pride even though I've never been close enough to touch it.
And some few tools manage to transcend utility - they're good art.
-- Morris Dovey DeSoto Solar DeSoto, Iowa USA
I've got a couple of Steve Knight planes I love, too.
Morris Dovey wrote:
Love I can understand. They are beautiful to look at, to hold, to use...
But pride is completely different. Or am I splitting hairs, and pride and love are the same thing here?
|| I've got a couple of Steve Knight planes I love, too. || | Love I can understand. They are beautiful to look at, to hold, to | use... | | But pride is completely different. Or am I splitting hairs, and | pride and love are the same thing here?
You're splitting hairs. They aren't the same thing, of course, but in this context they're at least close enough that you couldn't shine a light between 'em.
IMO, the best of art shows us something about ourselves that we don't normally give much thought. When the art happens to be a tool, it reminds us what we're capable of - and encourages us to grow and design and build to the highest of standards.
-- Morris Dovey DeSoto Solar DeSoto, Iowa USA
Let's just say, had I known my words would have been parsed to the N'th degree, I would have been more careful. My intention in the original post was to get some discussion going on Lie-Nielsen. I feel that Lee Valley is over-idolized and Lie-Nielsen is under-idolized. Opps -- I guess my use of the word "idolized" will spawn a stream of posts about what that means.....
However, regarding the originalpost, I'll stick by my use of the word "pride." I know I didn't make the tools it but I did make the money which bought them and I did do thorough analysis on which brand and type to buy.
I'm proud of the American Bill of Rights and the Constitution. I didn't write them and had I lived in those times, probably would not have even thought those ideas... However, I'm proud of them now.
I must confess, I did not go to the dictionary to check the exact meaning of "pride".
Cheers!
Toller wrote:
I don't think that is entirely true. LV has many more product to offer than LN, thus more reason to search the catalog/web site. LN has a more narrow product line but does have good quality. .
The LV planes are about as good performing, maybe better $$ value than LN, albeit they are not quite as fancy looking. Of course personal preference comes in here too.
There are other stores and web sites that are great value, super service, etc. LV just has more to offer more people. My wife likes to look at the LV catalog too because of the household and gardening items, but hardly every tools at the strictly tool ones. Given the multitude of choices in the LV catalog, many of us would grab that one first. As a whole, the average woodworker probably just has more exposure to one over the other.
Good point, Ed. However, even if I compare only those tools both provide, Lee Valley gets more press. Le Valley, Verita in particualr is wonderful. However, I think Lie-Nielsen deserves equal billing.....
Edw> > post was to get some discussion going on Lie-Nielsen. I feel that Lee
| Good point, Ed. However, even if I compare only those tools both | provide, Lee Valley gets more press. Le Valley, Verita in | particualr is wonderful. However, I think Lie-Nielsen deserves | equal billing...
Probably there are more of us who can afford Veritas planes than the corresponding LN and Clifton planes. LV gets good press here because they've consistantly bent over backward to ensure satisfaction of this group and because Rob Lee participates here.
(The same seems to work for McFeelys and Jim Ray.)
That doesn't (of itself) make their products better; but does make them very much more a part of this community than LN or Clifton have chosen to become.
Before buying the LV low-angle smoother, my "best" plane was a beech/lignum vitae plane from Ulmia - who I don't recall ever having been mentioned since I've been reading the wreck (until this post).
-- Morris Dovey DeSoto Solar DeSoto, Iowa USA
I don't know about everyone else here, but I'm certainly proud every time I buy a new LV product. Think about it. It's not an easy thing to examine the LV catalogue minutely, page by page selecting the toys I want to buy. Putting everything I want into buy now, buy later, buy when I win the lottery categories. It's a very careful process and it takes me an entire weekend. I go into work on Monday morning with my 'buy now' list in hand and spend the whole day at my desk with the office door locked while I sweat over my decisions. The rest of the office think I'm in there struggling over a new business contract when in reality, I'm in a life and death struggle between leaving in the middle of the day to go and make my LV purchases or wait for the day to be over so I can head to the LV store.
Then I drive home like a madman so I can play with what I've bought. The second I open the door to my home I feverishly rip open all the boxes to examine my treasures.
Let me tell you, it takes great deal of effort to do what I do, it's lucky I haven't suffered a coronary before this. So, You're DAMNED RIGHT I'M PROUD.
I tend to feel the same way. Things I buy are just things, objects, and I attach no importance to them other than their normal function. Things I make myself, however, I take pride in.
I know a fellow who bought a restored 1965 Chevy pickup. He is very proud of this truck, but I just couldn't take pride in something like that unless I had restored it myself.
Jon
I think this points out that the actual object of the pride is having made a good choice, be it LN or LV. It's not the result of the choice but the process, and that can include simply having put yourself in a position to be able to consider the high end products. When you actually get the tool in-hand and find that it's a pleasure to use you get the warm fuzzies and know you did right. If this is the case then I suppose it matters whether it's possible to make a /bad/ choice for tools in this price range.
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