New Fine Woodworking magazin almost made me ill

[Joe Wilding]

I think it was something about wood dust in an electrical contactor or something (sounds kind of scary), but they didn't know for sure. Joe

[Robert Galloway]

Some of the sprinkler systems I'm familiar with used a small vial in the sprinkler head the ruptured under heat and release the water. This system sounds pretty fool proof as far as false alarms unless it routinely gets up to a hundred and whatever in your shop. Are these things still considered worthwhile?

bob g.

Cl> You say you'll take water damage over fire damage any day, but I remember

[Dave jackson]

Also, an ounce of prevention.....Don't forget to keep fire extinguishers handy! Mount them up on the wall where they are easily accessible in an emergency, not buried under stuff in a corner. I keep 2 in my shop. Early this spring I cleaned some extra warm clothes out of my truck and put them on my workbench. Several days later i went into the shop, flipped on the 6 way, made a quick cut on something and went out back. About an hour later I smelled smoke, which is not all that unusual here, as many heat with wood. The smoke smell soon became very strong, and i became curious. I opened my shop door to find it completely filled with thick smoke. In a hurry, i ran in, felt around the wall (couldn't see anything) and grabbed the nearest extinguisher. I couldn't see any flames, so I opened the overhead door to let the smoke out and went in. What I found when the smoke started to clear is when I flipped on the six way, it also turned on the branding iron SWMBO bought me as a gift, but it was covered up by the clothes (specifically a few month old Carhartt jacket) I placed there a few days earlier. Burned the sleeve and one whole side of that jacket off and half of a flannel shirt lay smoldering in the driveway. I don't think the clothes ever had caught "fire", but did slowly smolder for quite a while. With the exception of the aforementioned, nothing else was damaged, not even the bench the clothes were on. Fortunately, I didn't need the extinguisher in this case, but at least it was there and ready if this problem had been worse. I learned a lesson from that day, and double check whats plugged in whenever I leave the shop, as it is my life! --dave

"Joe Wilding" wrote in message news: [e-mail]...

[Doug Miller]

I don't think so. I used to work at a place that had a halon fire suppression system in the computer room; the standard warning was if you hear the fire alarm go off, you have 30 seconds to get out of the room before the atmosphere is no longer breathable. I'll accept the (hopefully small) risk of my tools getting wet.

-- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)

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[Doug Miller]

Well, they're still selling them, and IIRC that's the type that was pictured in the article in FWW. My biggest concern with those would be protecting the glass vials from physical damage -- maybe a welded wire cage?

-- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)

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[Dave Balderstone]

Thanks for the advice. As it turns out I wasn't able to get to the store tonight... The boy's swab came back pos for strep throat, so I had to pick up the prescription from the doc and the antibiotics from the pharmacy instead. He's been off school for two days and has to be off tomorrow as well.

Ah, well... I've booked tomorrow off and we'll cruise over to the Co-op and pick up the right detector for the shop. It'll be a good safety lesson for him.

Then, maybe we'll make a wooden dinosaur (no, I'm not talking about the old-timers here... they're not my type), I picked up a book of dino patterns on sale a while back, and his eye's perked up when I showed it to him today.

As JT sez, life is good...

[Greg O]

I have seen sprinkler heads protected by a wire cage, so they are available. Greg

[patriarch]

Dave Hinz wrote in news: [e-mail]:

I had a smoke detector in the shop, set up about 10 ft away from the table saw. When the cut wasn't perfect, and the kerf burned a bit, it would go off, particularly with maple.

But that wasn't a false alarm - it was really burning.

Patriarch

[Robert Bonomi]

Just for the record, there ware *TWO* kinds of HALON systems used for computer rooms. _One_ of them *would* maintain a 'breathable' atmosphere for humans, while suppressing a fire. The other one was 'quite' hazardous to humans.

Note: I've had the 'dubious honor' of working at sites that have had dumps of _both_ kinds of systems. There is *no* warning/delay with the 'breathable' system -- when somebody hits the panic button the dump valves open *right*now*.

Either variety is fairly _expensive_ to use. The 'breathable' stuff, more so.

Unfortunately, you cannot buy/install a _new_ HALON system these days. and they're not making HALON any more. If you have an existing system, and can find 'old stock' from somebody, you can use that to recharge and/or top-off an existing system.

The -bad- news is that nobody's come up with a "good" replacement for HALON yet. Unlike the similarly banned 'FREON' refrigerant.

[Doug Miller]

Perhaps you can explain further, as I don't see how this is possible. To be breathable for humans, air must have somewhere around 15% oxygen minimum, I believe, and that's more than enough to support a fire.

And thus, absolutely not suited to use in a small woodshop -- if one could even get it, which as you note, one can't.

-- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)

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[Mike]

Yeah, my shop light switch also engages all the outlets in the shop. When I turn out the lights, everything turns off. Now I just need to make sure I keep remembering to turn out the lights.

-Mike

[Robert Bonomi]

HALON is *strange* stuff. 'Traditional' fire-extinguisher techniques revolve around removing one of the three components needed to sustain combustion: the fuel, the oxidizer, and 'heat'. e.g. CO2 extinguishers work by driving away the oxygen; a fire hose (water) works by absorbing the heat, etc.

HALON works _differently_ -- it 'interferes with' the combustion process. Sort-of like a catalyst that _slows_down_ a chemical reaction. A concentration of a few percentage points in the 'atmosphere' is sufficient to inhibit combustion.

This 'different' functionality is a significant part of why HALON is referred to as a 'fire *suppression*' system, rather than a 'fire extinguisher'.

At fire-suppression concentrations, HALON 1301 (gas) _is_ safe to breathe. HALON 1211 (liquid) is also 'breathable', *but* is generally "pushed out" by high pressure Nitrogen -- which adds a possible 'oxygen starvation' component to the situation. A few systems use HALON 1211 to push out the HALON 1301. There are other forms of HALON that also suppress combustion, but are moderately poisonous to animals, including humans, in the required concentrations. The health hazard is/was tolerated because of the other characteristics -- it 'suppresses' combustion *quickly*. it dissipates rapidly, and it doesn't leave any "mess" behind. In 'high value' installations that last characteristic is *important* -- it means you can get the site back in operation (at least the parts that didn't actually catch fire) almost immediately.

HALON's fire-suppression capabilities were discovered 'by accident' -- it was years later that the 'mechanism' of _how_ it "did it's thing" was figured out.

One last thing, like the old Mad Magazine sticker about 'waste water', the breathable HALON "tastes terrible". I *know*.

When manufacture was banned, effective 1994, the price of existing stockpiles _skyrocketed_.

Unfortunately, there is _nothing_ that is as effective, available to replace it. And nothing that is a 'drop-in' substitute; unlike the situation with the similarly-banned FREON refrigerants.

[Doug Miller]

Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)

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[Charlie Self]

You have one circuit that also includes your shop lights? I've got more than 45

115 volt outlets, at least six 230 volt, and three lighting circuits. I don't think I want all that on a single switch!

Charlie Self "Health nuts are going to feel stupid someday, lying in hospitals dying of nothing." Redd Foxx

[Mark Jerde]

IIRC nitrogen is a very dangerous gas for us humanoids. If you walk into a room with a high enough concentration of nitrogen and stay there a few breaths, the next thing you'll know (or won't know depending on whose religion is right) is you're dead. There's no shortness of breath, no choking, just your eyes going dark. The early warning sign is death.

IIRC extremely dangerous.

-- Mark

[Doug Miller]

You do *not* recall correctly.

Nitrogen is absolutely non-toxic to all forms of terrestrial animal life, humans included -- it comprises approximately 79% of the air on this planet.

That said, an atmosphere of pure nitrogen is not breathable by humans, but that's solely because of a lack of oxygen, and not due in any way to the presence of nitrogen.

-- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)

Get a copy of my NEW AND IMPROVED TrollFilter for NewsProxy/Nfilter by sending email to autoresponder at filterinfo-at-milmac-dot-com You must use your REAL email address to get a response.

[John Thomas]

[e-mail] (Charlie Self) wrote in news: [e-mail]:

Maybe he's got one of those big ol' double knife switches (or whatever they are called)? -- Thinking of something from one of the Frankenstein (early) movies?

Regards,

JT

[Mark Jerde]

From

March 19, 1981 during preparations for STS-1, at the end of the 33 hour long Shuttle Dry Countdown Demonstration Test, Columbia's aft engine compartment was under a nitrogen purge to prevent the buildup of oxygen and hydrogen gases from the propulsion system. Six technicians entered the aft engine compartment and five of the six lost consciousness due to the lack of oxygen in the compartment. Two died. John Gerald Bjornstad, a 50 year old Rockwell employee, was pronounced dead at the scene and Forrest Cole was brought to the hospital where he later died. The other four workmen were treated and released.

As I recall the press at the time (and I could be wrong) the danger of walking into a nitrogen atmosphere is that your body gives you *no* *clues* that it is not getting enough oxygen. There is no shortness of breath, no choking. There are zero warning signs. You breathe normally until you suddenly collapse.

Actually in this case there was an early warning sign (IIRC) for some of the people. The four who survived the accident freaked out and fled when the first one in, the guy who died on the site, collapsed.

That is my recollection of the press from 1981. I'm open to more/better information.

-- Mark

[Mark Jerde]

More...

prevent an accidental fire or explosion sealed compartments on the shuttle and ground equipment are purged with pure nitrogen. Nitrogen isn't poisonous but without oxygen a fire can't happen--however people can't breathe either.

Through a chain of miscommunications several technicians entered the shuttle's aft compartment on March 19, shortly after the shuttle's dress rehearsal was completed. They fell unconscious in the nitrogen-filled aft compartment. Other techs were able to pull their bodies out and fire and rescue personnel gave the victims CPR and oxygen. John Bjornstad died the day of the accident. Technician Forrest Cole lingered on, dying on April

1st. Four others were either hospitalized or treated and released. Some had respiratory problems for the rest of their lives.

The accident review board noted that a series of events led to confusion, a do not enter sign was removed when it should have been replaced with another sign with a warning. A supervisor was called away to another location. One tech who put on an emergency breathing mask and tried to see if anybody was still inside the shuttle couldn't tell because his mask fogged over. The accident led to more stringent safety rules and procedures. During the STS-1 mission astronauts John Young and Bob Crippen recognized Bjornstad and Cole for their sacrifice to the shuttle program.

I notice some of the details in this quote are different from what I recall being published in the Rapid City (South Dakota, USA) Journal in 1981.

I'm still googling for proof your body doesn't know when it is breating pure nitrogen.

-- Mark

[patriarch]

[e-mail] (Charlie Self) wrote in news: [e-mail]:

And I KNOW, from experience, that, when a tool trips a breaker, I don't want to be standing there, in the dark, with still-spinning steel and/or carbide.

Lights and tools go on different breakers.

Patriarch