AT least that much we seem to be speeking the same language on
At this point were are on 2 different roaads No need to do 100's of tests cuts you just jointed a piece of timber for something you are doing and noticed a problem ... not a 'test cut' just a cut at the time when yiou noticed the problem. From there I use a straight edge as an instrument ... U use dial indicator
Well thats the basic mechanics of the machine
Neither am I. I just used a straight edge to show me the error
Still no test cuts at this point. The straight edge has confirmed the problem. No blind shimming, once again the straight edge has gave me the amount of shimming required
Well you have your way and I have mine
The results from carry method are not subjective if done correctly. It either carrys or it doesnt. (dial indicator ether reads 0 or it doesnt) Or after a little practice you will hear is scrape and in which case you have no dicernable carry. Accuracy ... use a bit of trig and calculate the height error of a knife on a 3" (typical for smaller machine) cutter head when the straight edge moves lets say 1/8" to see the level of accuracy obtainable from the carry method even at that level. The smallest cutterblock I have is
5" and I always set it to carry about 1/16" or not at all (scrape or rub).You do not need to get anal about this measurement and actually measure it. That part I suppose is a little subjective. As all males seem to have a different idea of what 8" looks like I guess we can all have a different opinion of what 1/16" looks like ....>
I just believe the traditional method is the quickest,easiest and gives the level of accuracy required. I am not unfamiliar with using dial indicators and verniers as I have been playing with engineering and machining as a hobby for the past 10 years.I have quite a good collection of highly accurate measuring devices. I just find in unneccessary to use them for this type of work.
Refering to previous comment you will understand that I am not opposed to progress ... otherwise i would have no computer.... I am very much in the new millenium in areas where it is required and it is an inprovment on old methods. I suppose in a way I do get paid for the pushing the old methods as that is how I make a living and one of the reasons I am usually booked up to six months in advance.
Why would anyone dive in before knowing the extent of any problem? In this case it was what started this post ..... the symptoms of his cut told me it was the front table out of wack. The jointer told me. Therefor I know wher the problem is ... now all i need to do is correct it. THe straight edge told me how much i need to shim and where to shim. No guess work .... no black magic ..... just a little understanding of the machine
You achieve all teh same things with carry method or dial ... just different method of measurement. THe actuall adjusting of the knives is what takes the time, not the measuring. Either method of measurement should take the same time.
I heve seen tyeh light. Have you? I have the amount of adjustment required from the straight edge ... no guesswork
Just as you would set dial indicator back in place I use straight edge
Still not required refer above
I agree you cannot adjust infeed without some form of measurement, nobody is disputing that. We are just using 2 diff measuring devices which are just as accurate as each other used correcly.
"Prometheus" made a number of profound observations
Promethius, you make some wonderful points.
I have had to make furniture with many different types of tools. Some of it quite crappy and out of square. I just compensated. Square is a relative term. Not in terms of what is square on the wood, but rather what kind of hassle you have to go through to extract square from the machine.
Big beautiful tools and fancy alignment devices must be very nice. But I have had to get by with less. Many years ago, I made lots of big, rustic furniture that was held together with lag bolts. This was done with minimal space or equipment. I had to drill lots of holes of three different sizes and depths for each lag screw.
I started out trying to make each hole square. I did not do that well. The holes did not have to be perfectly perpendicular and I was a little anal about it. But after making enough pieces, I got so good at this drilling shuffle that I could drill these holes very fast and accurate with hand drills.
And they became almost perfectly ninety degrees as well. It just sort of happened. To this day, I can drill a very accurate hole with a hand drill. I am not certain if that is a profound life skill or not. But it occured as a byproduct of repetitious experience. Sadly, many other skills of woodworking escaped me. But I have observed masters with a hand saw that can cut wood more accurately with that hand saw than I could with a circular saw and guide. And they can do it much faster too.
Sad to say I never had the genetics to have that eye or hand of the master tradesman. But I have observed it many times by individuals of both the metal and wood trades. It may take time to develop and everyone can't do it. But that spot on observational skill has been a part of the human experience long before modern tools and measurement devices. Some folks still embody these ancient skills.
There it is. Fiddling with the measuring instruments becomes a major issue.
Consider, however, that the tolerances which apply to metals or materials of consistent composition are _irrelevant_ to working a material like wood. The material isn't capable of accepting and less capable even of maintaining such tolerances.
Woodworking machines are built to less tolerance because they don't need to be. Advocates of finding out how far they're "off" rather than just finding out they're off might want to consider the course of action following the discovery. Got a micrometer adjust on the tool, or do you have to bump, tighten and recheck? No hands in the class for micrometers? Then don't add one.
Having used both methods for years, I can see you're either totally missing the point, or unable to have an open mind about any other method than what you're currently using.
The carry method DOES NOT take the same amount of time as the indicator. You have to set the knife, test it, adjust, test it, etc... If the cutterhead is off of TDC on any of the adjustments, it's wrong, as that knife is higher than the others..
Using an indicator and referencing the cutterhead allows one to drop the knife in, raise it to a predetermined point, tighten the screws and move on. All this is done in maybe 15 seconds per knife! It takes me longer to walk across the shop and get the indicator and fresh knife set than it does to actually replace a full set of knives on my DJ-20.
I'm going to agree to disagree and move on. Your method seems to work wonderfully for you, and I know that's the most important point. I argued your side for years, tried the other way and never looked back.
It's clear that you've never used a dial indicator to set jointer knives. Before I bought a TS-Aligner, I used to set my jointer knives using the "carry method" too -- and it works just fine, don't get me wrong, I got fine results that way. But after the first time that I set jointer knives using the dial indicator, I abandoned the carry method permanently because the dial indicator is so much faster (and more accurate, besides).
In a nutshell: with the carry method, you have to see how far the straightedge is carried, adjust the knife what you hope is the right amount, and check the carry again -- and *repeat* this process until the carry is where you want it. Even if your first adjustment was dead-on perfect, you still have to check the carry again to verify it.
With the dial indicator, you set the stylus on the knife and turn the adjusting screw until the indicator reads zero. DONE.
The time required isn't anywhere nearly the same. You have no basis for claiming that it is. I've used both methods. You haven't. And you're badly mistaken.
Well Paul, I think that we're getting nowhere in this discussion. You changed your tune. It started with you saying:
"you dont need dial indicators ... only implements required to set up jointer accuratly is a cpl of pieces of timber. Let the machine talk to you and tell you what the prob is rather than trying to find an interpretor to talk to the machine"
While it stretches this idea of yours, I can see how you do the "carry" method with just a piece of wood (even though it is acting as an "interpretor" for you). But, now that you are backed into a corner with the infeed table adjustment, you add a steel straight edge. Sounds like another "interpretor" to me. It tells me a couple of things. First, you are not speaking from experience. You are making this up as you go along. This "jointerese" stuff that you advocate has some degree of logic (everybody diagnoses problems based on symptoms) but it breaks down when theory becomes practice (it will take a week if you insist on doing adjustments by measuring the results of test cuts).
Sec> > Like I said in the previous reply, using a dial indicator doesn't let
No George, it's not even the point. He was trying to describe two different approaches to doing the same work. Two people from two different backgrounds approach the same task in different ways. One guy approaches it analytically, the other approaches it emperically.
Nobody is saying that wood can hold the same tolerances as metals or composites. The discussion is about aligning a machine. A machine always needs to be aligned and adjusted more accurately than the desired tolerances. The question at hand concerns which method achieves this goal faster and easier. If you are really good at the "carry" method, then there should be no accuracy difference between it and using a dial indicator.
Actually, woodworking machines can do some very precise and tight tolerance work. It's the adjustments on the machine which are crude (which leads to a lot of trial and error). Once the setting is correct, a good tablesaw can do some amazing work. I regularly use my tablesaw to cut aluminum to within +/-0.005". And, in case you haven't noticed, a lot of woodworking tools are now comming equipped with micrometer adjustments these days.
No, it's not. It's really the question of spending your time goofing around with test cuts or spending your time working on your project.
As I mentioned in the other thread, the Aligners can do bed rollers, feed rollers, chip breakers, and cutterhead. These are all the things that can be adjusted from below on a planer. Thre is a restriction. The 1" travel indicators that I ship with the Aligners are about 5" long (from one end of the plunger to the other). So, your planer needs to allow at least 5" underneath the head. Or, since the Aligners use a standard AGD group 2 loop back indicator, you can get one with smaller travel just for use on a shorter planer.
The knives on a planer need to be adjusted in relation to the cutterhead. It can be done from below and some of my competition advocates doing so. However, it seems like torture to me. They really need to be set from above. I don't have a jig to do that right now. There are some other jigs on the market which do it (not the magnet ones, ones with dial indicators).
Good points. This must have taken some time to write!
In some ways, yes. In others, no. It's also for the experienced person who just doesn't have time for trial and error methods. Anybody who is frustrated trying to get their woodworking machines to do what they want is a good candidate.
There is a big difference between a carpenter on a job site and a woodworker in a shop. The methods that I advocate and the products that I have designed are not for carpenters. I recognize that their work environment, requirements, results are very different.
No, I agree. Nobody would respect a vertical mill which was only good for +/-0.005". But, everybody has respect for a tablesaw or jointer which can work in these tolerances.
Again, I think it would be rediculus for someone on a jobsite to pull out a dial indicator. Nothing about trim carpentry or framing requires more than a speedsquare and a chop saw. I'm concerned mainly with woodworking done in a shop (furniture and fine cabinetry).
I think we're talking about different approaches to essentially the same work. In the end, the tolerances are the same. A joint is tight because it has been worked to within several thousandths of an inch. It doesn't matter if this work was done with a precisely aligned and adjusted machine, done by trial and error, or with hand tools. The end result is the same but the methods are different.
The woodworker in a shop is much more analogous to the machinist.
Yes, and I can easily see how absurd it would be for the carpenter to be using dial indicators.
Agreed. The whole approach to becoming a machinist is analytical and education based.
Whew! Good description. OK, here's what I think happens. The jobsite woodworker eventually works his way into a shop. He takes his tools and techniques into the shop with him. He draws from his experience and applies his skills to machinery and work which demands much more. His solution is to do much more - much more trial and error, test cuts, etc. He doesn't apply new tools and techniques to the new environment. He just tries to scale jobsite skills to the wood shop.
are very accurate for things like "parallel", "square", "even",
I think that there is naturally some pride in being able to overcome adverse conditions. All noteworthy achievements carry some pride. It's just natural.
It's an emotional response. Sure, I understand this. What I don't understand is the inability or unwillingness to examine alternative methods and judge them on their merrits. It's probably because I use an analytical approach to problems. People who get threatened by new ideas don't use the same objective analytical approach.
Actually, I don't mind letting the trial and error people continue to do it their way. The problem comes in when they actively attempt to dissuade others from considering the objective analytical approach.
I understand what you are saying. If you have been doing it a long time and you feel like your estimating skills are refined and honed then you are naturally insulted by someone who calls it "guessing". You feel like these skills have a lot of value. You aren't going to be happy with someone who presents tools and techniques which place no value on them.
I understand. Eventually, economics will dictate the methods used in shops. This is what happened in machine shops. It has happened for the most part in large industrial wood shops. It is happening now in the mid-sized and smaller wood shops. It's just not going to be economically feasible to let everyone who thinks they are good at estimating to spend time and materials doing test cuts.
There is a point where I get pretty impatient with nay-sayers. But, I always do my best to understand their viewpoint first. It's my analytical approach. I just don't respond emotionally before thinking about it first.
For the most part, I believe that these specific people are alienated before I talk to them. They have an immediate emotional reaction when they hear someone talking about dial indicators. They do not even listen to what is being discussed. They do not consider alternatives. They have so much time, work, and emotion invested in their hard earned methods that such talk is personally threatening. It makes them feel like a huge part of thier life was a waste of time and that their "skills" are not needed. This is why I believe that they actively try to dissuade others from "taking the easy road" and "cheating" with dial indicators. I do not need to sell my products to these people. But, I do not appreciate how they ridicule the use of dial indicators. There is little choice for me but to engage them in a dialog to get them to reveal their motives.
Absolutely. I believe in adopting best practices from all areas of one's experience.
In answer to your reference ti trying dial indicator ..... yes I have as regards to accuracy ... do a little trig and calculate the height of an arc for say a 3" circle So we shall just agree to disagree
No I have a little more respect for my machines. Apart from that being in a trade enviroment as a general rule we do not use second hand materials. If by chance an old door/window is being repaired it is stripped by hand first. And befor the issue of a moving a knife sideways because of a chip arises here, I don't do that either. As all the jointers are set up for rebating as well.
It appears that we are still talking two different languages. Refer to previous posts and you will see i mentioned a straight edge .... whether that be a timber rule, plastic rule or steel ..... nothing has changed. Which you use is a matter of personal preference. Personally I usually use steel rule.
Believe what you will. At least I do not have to lower myself to personal attacks on ppl. I do not know the history or experience af a lot of ppl in here and knew nothing of you untill a few posts ago. I find it sad that when ppl in the trade with real knowledge in the real world have their knowledge disputed by persons with probably no more than hobby experience. From your measuring devices I am assuming that you have some sort of engineering background. If you understand the theory and practice of setting up the way I and many others do you could also see that there is no need to do any test cuts for the setting up. You are the only person insisting on doing 100's of test cuts.THe first cut whether that was a test cut or a real job told you the prob. Why do more cuts when you know it's wrong? Adjust it, then either do a test cut or if your confident as I would just go back to the job at hand
We are definatly talking 2 different languages. I am using English. From my apparently poor knowledge I was always of the understanding that knife/table alignment was contained within the subject of jointer alignment.
PLEASE REFER TO EARLIER POSTS I believe I was the one who pointed out at the top of this thread what I believed the problem was from his description. You are the one arguing the merits of dial indicators which I can understand since you sell knife aligning products. I told the OP the problem, gave him a solution. Using measurement or the carry method. What else could I do? ... go and fix it for him. It was from that solution that the debate on dial indicators has continued
To repeat myself once again Believe what you will. At least I do not have to lower myself to personal attacks on ppl. I have no agenda except to help ppl to understand that there is other options to spending money on 'measuring devices' The method I relayed was able to be performed immediatly with no delay waithing a cpl of days to buy a dial indicator.
As this is now just lowering itself to personal attacks I think we should just let it go as it is only going round in circles. In near perfect allignment too I might add. It is offering no practical content to the discussion. THe 2 methods have been raised and it is an individual choice from there. Although a few might be getting some amusment value from our bickering.
You continue to flog your measuring devices and I will just simply continue doing some real work.
Sorry, but I simply do not believe that. The dial indicator is so much faster that anyone who really had used both methods would never claim that the time required is the same -- and the fact that you *haven't* used a dial indicator to set jointer knives is betrayed by the way you phrased your statement, too: "Either method of measurement SHOULD take the same time." [emphasis added] In other words, you *know* how long it takes with the method you use, but you're only *speculating* that setting them with a dial indicator "should" take the same time. It doesn't.
I never said that the carry method was not accurate, only that the dial indicator was *more* accurate. It is. And anyone who had ever used both methods of setting jointer knives would know that, too.
Any good suggestions for those? I'll admit- that F#$%$ng planer takes me a lot of time, and the results are less than stellar. The old plastic guage with magnets just isn't working out for me. Half the time, I end up using a hand plane instead, which sort of defeats the purpose of having that expensive piece of equipment sitting in the corner.
Thanks. But not too much time- I type fast, and tend to just riff off a mental outline.
Definately- as noted by yourself below, I was using the viewpoint of a carpenter moving into a woodshop. If a machinist moves into a woodshop, they're going to be using machine shop practices already. I don't know what everyone's background in these discussion is, but I suspect that if you strip off the shellac, there's more than a few guys that started woodworking as jobsite carpenters, like I did.
You might be surprised at how much fine cabinetmaking occurs during the install- and it's often the hardest part of the job. One example- scribing the back edge of a cabinet to mate to a brick wall. Takes a good deal of technique to get it right!
There you go!
Granted- though it is often the case that even a fine cabinetmaker needs to take some tools on the road. This was, of course, more about background than shop conditions in any case.
Exactly- people use what they know, and if it works for them, there is not a great incentive to change. As you've stated several time, it's an emotional issue, not a purely logical one. If a guy does something the same way for 20 years and gets fine results, he's going to get worked up if someone tells him his methods are slipshod and half-assed.
Well, it may or may not be inappropriate- that's where a little give on your part might go a long way to ending these debates. Some folks require more assistance to acheive an acceptable level of precision- but others don't. It's kind of like the difference between needing glasses and having perfect vision- or a musician who uses sheet music to learn a new tune verses the guy who can play it perfectly after hearing it once. In any case, anyone can achieve the same result as someone else, but they may need to take different paths to get there.
Consider that guy with an analog to perfect pitch in a woodshop, who is not familiar with the proper set up and use of indicators- it is still appropriate for him to simply set the machine into the proper alignment, especially if using the machinist's tools will cost him a great deal of time, effort, and frustration. Sure, he could overcome all those things with time and practice, but for him- it's pointless.
It's very difficult to see things from another person's perspective- I've been guilty of failing to do so over and over again, and I'm sure it will happen many more times in the future. If *I* can do something, and it seems easy to me- I just assume that everyone else can as well, and if they do not or will not, they're just being lazy or stubborn.
Using this logic, if I then see something like (for instance) a cd sold to teach people how to use Internet Explorer or check their e-mail, I get irritated, and start to think that the person selling these things is some kind of con man- never even considering the idea that the product may be a godsend to millions of other people who need a little help. If I happened to run into that guy some time later, I might challenge his motives and accuse him of any number of unflattering things. The same thing is happening here with woodworking products- there's absolutely nothing wrong with the use of an indicator, but there's certainly a little sourness over the idea that one must have one to do good work.
Yes- and it's also a response to some of the words you're using. If someone feels that they're being talked down to or mocked, they're going to get angry enough that they no longer care what the original point was. Once again, I've been guity of it myself more than a few times, and probably will be again.
That's the whole shooting match right there. It's not so much the existance or presentation of the product, as it is the insult of the use of the words "guessing" and "trial-and-error." The fact that they
*are* skills indicates that they are neither guesswork nor trial and error.
Sure- and that's part of this, too. A lot of the folks on this group are engaging in a hobby or very small businesses- not worrying about employees or financial decisions. The folks that don't need to do woodworking to put food on the table have the time to learn the older methods, and may find a lot more pleasure in using them.
This is one of those things that I (even if I'm alone it the idea) do to escape a constant pressure and drive to maintain profitability during working hours. It's nice to not worry about how much a thing costs to make in terms of a balance sheet, and just focus on making something you like.
Sure, and I've seen that in you, or else I would not have bothered with this to begin with. Sometimes running a syllogism in your head comes up with the wrong human answer- most people are not severely bound by the constrants of an impersonal logic. If you're going to sell things, you aught to know that- and probably do.
No, you may not need to sell your product to "these people"- but wouldn't it be nice if you did?
I disagree. As you've noted above, you feel that economic stresses will inevitably cause a change in the production woodshop. If that's the case- and there's certainly an argument for that, you don't need to engage nay-sayers at all. The product will be it's own spokesman, as it does the job and gets recommended. Look at the example of Lee Valley- I've never seen Rob Lee jump in on a thread about how Amazon has good deals to question the motives of the person who made the statement, and they get more free advertising on this group than I might have believed possible without seeing it firsthand. There's a lesson to be learned in that.
No problem at all with announcing sales, explaining the product, etc.- but if you start to dig at folks to uncover hidden motives, they start to get sore about it. I know that in most cases, you're trying to help with something unrelated to your own product, but there are some subtile barbs in a lot of those posts you may not be aware of. There's no conspiracy to keep indicators out of the shop, just head-butting over wording.
Well, I'm off to bed. Hope all this helps calm the recent spat of arguments over the dreaded dial-indicator at least a little. If not, I suppose it's something to read.
Thanks for taking so much time and thought in your response.
One of the things that I have decided to do as a result of what you have said is to update the "jointer" page on my web site with demonstrations of alternative methods. I think you are right, this will probably help. I don't know how long it will take me but I will probably announce the updates here in the wreck.
In order for the "carry" method to be as accurate as the dial indicator, the chord length must be less than 1/8" (chord height =0.0013" for length 0.125" on a 3" circle). This seems easy enough in theory. Unfortunately in my experience the practice leaves a bit to be desired. Like I said, measuring the results with a dial indicator reveal nowhere near this level of accuracy. So, there must be other uncontrolled variables affecting my outcome (I have no problem admitting that I'm no good at it). I've suggested one that would result in a carry which is significantly shorter than the chord length (a dull knife). It's not too hard to think of others (weight, friction, speed, etc.).
It's likely that some pe> In answer to your reference ti trying dial indicator ..... yes I have
Not a personal attack, just simple deduction. It's apparent that your original "let the machine talk to you" method has morphed considerably. Interpreters (measurement devices) are now allowed so long as they are not a dial indicator. And, it's obvious from your characterizations that you want the dial indicator solution to look ridiculous.
Ya, it's a shame. So, you're just a hobbyist? I thought you said something about getting paid for your woodworking? You can always visit my web site to learn a bit about my history and experience.
You could say that.
I understand that you started by telling the OP the following:
"you dont need dial indicators ... only implements required to set up jointer accuratly is a cpl of pieces of timber. Let the machine talk to you and tell you what the prob is rather than trying to find an interpretor to talk to the machine
Be at one with the machine and 'feel the force' "
I don't know anybody who can "set up a jointer accurately" with this sort of advice. Since it was a direct reply to one of my messages, I decided to respond. I thought I was being fairly polite in that response and even a little light hearted with the term "jointerese".
If you had meant to tell the OP about using straight edges and the "carry" method and stuffing shimms into tiny gaps, then perhaps you should have said so and left out the BS about talking machines and feeling the force. It's only natural for me to compare your current proposed method to the original post and decide that there have been some inconsistencies.
Well, the problem is that your advice to the OP didn't say anything about how to "set up a jointer accurately" except to "let the machine talk to you". Assuming that you weren't being literal (machines olny "talk" to certain people when they forget to take their medication), I figured that your reference to a "cpl pieces of timber" naturally menat "test cuts". If you meant to include more, and elaborate on the "carry" method then perhaps you should have. You seemed to remember the part about "you dont need dial indicators" but you managed to forget the part about "set up a jointer accurately".
So, we're not talking "jointerese" anymore?
That's what I did. Why do you think it appears a bit strange to me? Do you think that your description on how to do jointer alignment has been consistent the whole time?
Hmmmm.....Yep, you did say what you thought the problem might be. You gave him three suggestions (ignore the fence, check the knives, and check the infeed table). Then you launched into the whole jointerese thing. Care to review it yourself?
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's nothing in your message about how to do any jointer alignment except to say "you don't need dial indicators" and "let the machine talk to you".
You said "you don't need dial indicators" and "let the machine talk to you". You didn't tell him how to do anything. There was no real method described. No procedure that could be "performed immediately". Nothing.
Absolutely. If you are going to play the "personal attack" card, try to make dial indicators look ridiculous, and avoid addressing the issues that I raise, then there is no point in discussing anything. Of course, you can always admit that this "let the machine talk to you" stuff wasn't really a description on how to align a jointer. You could also admit that you have deliberately used absurd descriptions to characterize the use of dial indicators as ridiculous. And, you can admit that the "personal attack" crap is an effort to deflect some rather pointed issues which you would rather not discuss. Only then can we have a good, honest discussion.
Thirty lashes for the next Aligner! (No Aligner leaves the shop without being flogged).
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