Jointer Trouble

Hello, I'm close to loosing all patience with my 6 1/8" jointer/planer and hoping for some advice. It's a Craftsman bench top model and my history with sears woodworking tools leaves me to first suspect the machine. Let me get to the problem first.

All boards I plane (and I have only worked with 4S softwood pine) will produce a flat face, but this flat face is always deeper on one end than the other. Thus, I start with two sides something close to 90deg and working on edge 1 starts moving the two sides closer to 80deg. If I try to correct the problem by on edge two I get even closer to 70deg. Obviously one side of the blades/plates/something is lower/higher than the other but I can't figure it out. My straight edges aren't as reliable as I'd like so I tried a 1-2-3 block on the out feed with feeler guages on the infeed to check for differences along the length. Might I mention I can't get the infeed to the same level as the outfeed so this is the only way to check for coplanar tables as well. The feeler guage didn't seem to show any difference between the two in terms of height but I don't feel as confident as I might if I could compare the two on a granite surface out in space to make sure that everything is truly level to 0.0000000001+- inches. Do you see how nuts this is making me?

I would like to think the problem rests in my technique and I've read the book on technique. I understand snipe (not a problem with me at this point), I get the concept of planing an edge, then a face then surface planing opposite face then finishing edge on the joiner. I get the hand over hand, weight transfer from outfeed to infeed idea. I've read, get and tried it all and still get these boards that close in from 90 to 0 degrees. Last night I jointed 1 inch off a board, worked until 1:08AM adjusting the blades (lost the allen wrench between the roller/infeed, took apart the entire machine, rebuilt it, readjusted blades), felt confident I was getting a flat face/90deg cut, tried it this morning and same thing.

Help!

Reply to
clmessina
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If I understand what you're saying, it sounds like the outfeed is not horizontal in relation to the infeed.

Reply to
Charlie M. 1958

How long is the board you're working with? For adjustment and checking purposes I'd start with a board not much longer than the infeed bed, that was fairly straight to begin with.

Jointing a long, warped board on a benchtop jointer is an art I was never able to master.

Reply to
else24

Sounds to me like you got that backwards ... indeed, you might want to review your technique.

Reply to
Swingman

Yep, sounds like the perfect recipe to create a tapered cut...

Reply to
dpb

I think maybe you want to much from a jointer. If you edge or face a board over and over on the same side you will start to see the board get smaller on the tail end or one one edge. It's just the physics of the system in my opinion.

I think you can rely on a jointer to:

A: Flatten one face of a board. If this takes several passes you will likely notice that one edge or end is thinner than the other.

B: Straighten one edge by indexing the newly flattened face against the fence. Now you have one flat face with one edge at exact 90 (if you have a good setup on the fence).

Now you can use the Planer to flatten the other face relative to the already flattened face and the TS to straighten the other edge relative to the straight edge.

Does this sound right?

snipped-for-privacy@hotmail.com wrote:

Reply to
SonomaProducts.com

snipped-for-privacy@hotmail.com wrote: ...

I can't tell which surface and which dimension/angle with respect of surface to edge you're having a problem with from your description...

Are you ending up w/ stock of varying thickness while trying to surface it or an edge that is out of square w/ the face?

If the former, there's a note from Swingman that I concur is quite likely a possibility that is technique-related unless you made a description error. If the latter, the fence may be out of square w/ the tables rather than the knives being out of adjustment.

Your description of technique/process also left me a little confused as well as to what you're after w/ a jointer. The point/sequence of face-jointing first w/ the jointer is to get one flat surface which becomes the reference. Then need to get the opposite surface flat and parallel to that one and the jointer isn't the ideal way to do that -- that's the planer's job. Problem w/ the jointer for the second face is that once you've taken some material off the first face or if it was rough-sawn material to begin with, the second face isn't parallel to the first but the cut is referenced only to that surface so, in general, you end up w/ a second face also flat but not parallel to the first. It is _extremely_ difficult to manually adjust the amount of cut in the right place to correct the initial discrepancy unless it is very large and so typically every pass simply compounds the problem...

Reply to
dpb

It's hard for me to be sure exactly what you are talking about. To me, the "ends" of a board are the shorter width. "End grain" is on the ends of a board. Are you saying that you are jointing a face or an edge of a board and that you are having trouble keeping it parallel with the opposite face/edge? Or, are you saying that the depth of the cut across the width of the board isn't consistent?

Please don't interchange the terms "sides" or "edge". It makes it very difficult to follow what you are describing. Use the term "edge" to describe a narrow side. Use the term "face" to describe a wide side. If the piece being jointed is square, then they are all faces.

So, are you saying that you are having trouble jointing an edge so that it is square to a face?

Is "edge two" opposite or adjacent to "edge 1"? See, I just can't picture what you are talking about. Use "opposite edge" or "adjacent face".

Proper jointer alignment starts with making sure that the knives are all at the same level as the outfeed table. It could be that this is your problem, I don't know. Then you want to make sure that the infeed table is parallel to the outfeed table. It could be that this is your problem, I don't know. Finally, you want to make sure that the fence is square with both tables. This could also be your problem.

First, I will have to understand your symptoms. Then I can direct you through all the steps needed to check each one of the major alignments on a jointer. You might also find it handy to view the video on this page:

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's another video with different voice-over on this page under the heading "Using a flat indicator tip to set jointer knives" (which is a practice which will can lead to the problems that you are suffering).

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'll notice that I advocate the use of a dial indicator. This eliminates all of the guess work that you are currently finding so frustrating. It doesn't have to be a TS-Aligner Jr. Any indicator jig that can point the dial indicator downward will work. It takes considerable skill to subjectively discern jointer knives using a 123 block and some feeler gages. I certainly can't do it as well as I can with a dial indicator.

Yep. There's another way to do a relative comparison of the two tables without going juts. The two tables don't have to be at the same level (in fact, it's easier if they are not). It does involve the use of a long straight edge and a dial indicator. Here's the setup (photo from a customer):

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straight edge being used here is from Lee Valley:

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I would like to think the problem rests in my technique and I've read

Hmmm.... Try it this way: Joint a face, then joint an adjcent edge using the jointed face against the fence. Then use your tablesaw to rip the opposite edge parallel. And finally use a surface planer to make the opposite face parallel. It's not generally practical to use a jointer to make two faces or two edges parallel. It's good for creating a flat surface (facing) and for squaring two adjcent faces (or a face to an edge).

I'm sure you mean "infeed to outfeed" here.

I just don't understand what this means. How do boards "close in from

90 to 0 degrees"? 90 degrees is square. 0 degrees is flat (no angle).

Go get yourself a low cost dial indicator and I'll help you to figure out exactly what is wrong without any guess work or frustration.

Ed Bennett snipped-for-privacy@ts-aligner.com

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Reply to
ejb

Sorry dpb, I wrote my description before going to lunch and was simply fried. After re-reading it I think it's confusing too so I'll start over.

Let's say I have a 2"x4"x4' board with sides A (top), B (right), C (bottom), D (left), E (front), F (back). I want to get C and D at 90 deg, and they're close to start with. I know that I will have snipe affecting E & F based upon where I place my weight as the board passes over the knives. My concern isn't so much E&F as C&B. C&B start close to 90deg then gets closer to 0deg with ever pass that C stays where it is. C always remains flat but the angle of C in relation to B moves in to 0Degrees.

So, I have this nice flat surface (C) even though it's less than 90deg in relation to B. I should be able to run C against the vertical fence and make B = 90. Nope. As I run it, C and B edge closer to 0 as the board begins turning into a long board with wedged D side .

Reply to
clmessina

Thank you so much for your suggestions and links. As I mentioned to dbs, my description of the problem was confusing (sorry).

Thanks everyone for offering help, really. I think I'm simply being reluctant to purchase a dial indicator for set-up but I'm starting to think that is unavoidable when you own woodworking machines. PS I love Lee Valley/Veritas. Too bad every company doesn't work as hard as they do to provide value and accuracy.

snipped-for-privacy@ts-aligner.com wrote:

Reply to
clmessina

Assuming that your fence isn't moving during the operation, it sounds like a technique problem.

Assuming you've jointed face C, and maybe thickness-planed face E.

To edge-joint B (or D) you should be pressing C (or E, depending on grain direction) against the fence directly over the cutterhead. If you do this, and the fence is at 90 degrees to the cutterhead, then the face and edge will be perpendicular.

Chris

Reply to
Chris Friesen

This sounds to me like your fence is not square with the tables. This would cause each pass jointing an edge to get progressively worse.

Either that or your infeed or outfeed tables are twisted at a funny angle. I don't even know how that is possible on a jointer, but I guess it could be the case.

Either way, sounds like the angle between your tables and fence is not at 90 degrees.

Reply to
Mike

I read through the revised description. I might be able to figure it out, but I don't think so. "left", "right", "top", "bottom", etc. are all relative terms. Your left is my right and if you turn a board to do something then the top, which was side "A" is not the top any more, etc. And, there's no way for me to know if side A is a face or an edge. And, "C and B edge closer to 0 as the board begins turning into a long board with wedged D side" is a complete mystery to me. Does this mean that the angle between a face and an edge is becoming larger or smaller than 90 degrees? Is the board actually growing longer? How is a side becomming "wedged"? Does this mean that opposite sides are not parallel? Which way are they not parallel (along their length, across their width, or both)?

Please use standard terms: face, edge, adjcent, opposite, etc.

More and more I'm beginning to think that you want your jointer to do the entire task of stock preparation on all four sides of the board. This just isn't what it was meant for. It is good at making a surface flat and square in relation to another surface. However, it is not intended to be used to make two surfaces parallel. Do one face side and one edge side on the jointer, period. Then finish up the board on a table saw (the opposite edge) and the planer (opposite face). Everything will be flat, square, and parallel.

Using dial indicators is not unavoidable. There are plenty of people who avoid them. Some even insist on avoiding them with religious fervor!. But, if you expect your machines to do their work properly and accurately, and you don't like being frustrated, then a dial indicator is a nice thing to have. It's natural to be a bit aprehensive about using an unfamiliar tool but dial indicators are low cost and extremely easy to use. And, after having handled literally thousands of them, I've never been bitten.

Thanks, Ed Bennett snipped-for-privacy@ts-aligner.com

snipped-for-privacy@hotmail.com wrote:

Reply to
ejb

I suspect it's operator. If the knives will "carry" a piece resting on the outfeed table at either end, and check all three knives, then you need to adjust them. Don't know if your outfeed table is adjustable or not. Some aren't. You need them to kiss, not carry more than 1/8" on all three, and no jazzbo gage is necessary. Your 1,2,3 block will be milled right enough. If they're high, they'll snipe the trailing edge, if low, the board will hit the outfeed table. Imagine you've got jackscrews, or at the least, springs to raise the knives when loosened. If not, time to get some cow magnets and hold the knives up with them.

Got to be a half-dozen jointer adjust sites out there. I use my book, and it's the same.

Now remember that you have to watch what you're doing. You really can't effectively reference a broad face to a narrow one, so sight the broad face for twist or bow, setting the board over the guard and sliding the guard aside to take off high spots at each end, or cross-corner. Hand plane will do it too. Once you've a sighted surface, plane it all, using the blocks and pressure over the point where the board contacts the outfeed table.

Now go back and reference the broad surface to your 90 degree fence, sighting the board as before and removing high spots with partial passes. Often when ripping boards the tension in the wood will cause some bow or twist, which is why you rip a bit oversize, and plane only after ripping and facing. Gets you straight stock you don't have to bully into position with clamps or fasteners.

Reply to
George

snip

I initially found it a rather rude surprise that a 6 1/4 inch jointer/planer (or any other size) could not reliably plane two parallel sides.......what you are trying to do is not what the tool wants or can do very well.....You can joint one edge and one side with your jointer then use a thickness planer (different tool) to do the other side and then your table saw for the other edge ......but with a jointer only you will not get the result you desire.....Can't blame Sears for this one....Rod

Reply to
Rod & Betty Jo

There are low cost dial indictors. Harbor Freight has a set (w/base) that has a sale price of about $15. Grizzly has one on sale this Christmas for $22.25 (with a molded case). see

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Reply to
Bruce Barnett

Hello helpful woodworkers. I seem to be confusing a few posters so I'll try to reclarify the board directions. Before I do, let me state I am not trying to square four sides of a board on a jointer alone. I realized how difficult that was when I first bought the machine and fixed the issue by purchasing a decent planer. Also, I have nothing against gagetry (particularly gauges). I am quite a supporter of guages for setting machines better than fingers or eyes can.

OK, that said, I'd listed sides A (top), B (right), C (bottom), D (left), E (front), F (back). I did not list their relationship to the joiner clearly enough. The board would be fed E (front) from infeed table to outfeed table with A (top of board) facing up. Side B (the right side as looking down the planer tables from infeed to outfeed table) would face the fence and side D (the side of the board opposite the fence) would face me.

On each successive pass over the joiner Side C gets closer and closer to side A on the D side but not on the B side. That is, the board acts as if the fence is angled toward me but the fence is set with a 123 block at 90degrees. Thus in the 2"x4"x4' board demonstration, let's imagine the board is perfectly square with the length (E to F) being

4', the depth of the board (A to C) being 2" and the width of the board (B to D) being 4". For simplicity sake, let's say I take 1" off the board. With my current set up, after I pass the board through the jointer . E to F (lenght of board) is still = 4', B to D (width) is still 4", but Side D is now 1" and Side B = 2".

Someone suggested it might be the blade setting but I wanted to know if it was the blade, tables, table (in or out), or operator. The fence and tables are set to 90 as measured by a 123 block. I do not know that the tables are coplanar to eachother.

Again, sorry if this has frustrated anyone and thank you for your help.

Reply to
clmessina

How is the jointer mounted to the bench? I have a Crapsmen as well and had the same problems you are haveing, the only thing that would come out the other end was a broom stick and a poor one at that. A friend of mine who was a retired machinest suggested that I remove the mounting bolts from the outfeed table, which I did and that solved the problem. According to my friend the bolts were putting a twisting stress on the jointer, and that it reared its ugly head only when in use. He stated jointers, lathes etc. should have only a 3 point mounting system as it is self leveling and that the 3 single mounting point should only be snug only. I have not had any problems since and get 90 degree surfaces.

Reply to
JOE MOHNIKE

Wheeewww ... I don't. From your description and IF I follow what you're saying:

What you're describing is what would happen if the knives are higher in relation to the tables on your side (D), and lower on the side closest to the fence (B).

Whether this is due to a table being warped/twisted, either stationary or under use, or the knives just need adjusting is hard to tell.

What happens when you swap D and B against the fence and run it through again, and does it have the effect of canceling out the problem?

Reply to
Swingman

Ah, the problem occurs when you're face jointing. A light dawns.

There is possibly an alignment issue. You need to check that 1) your knives are aligned with the outfeed table, and 2) your infeed table is aligned to the outfeed table.

Chris

Reply to
Chris Friesen

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