Humility

[RonB]

A few weeks ago I posted a questions regarding lightening the color of an a ntique oak table. The table is a family heirloom that goes back at least 1

00 to 120 years. My folks had already stripped and stained it in the 1950' s so preservation of patina was not a concern.

This morning I am sipping my coffee and getting ready to apply the 4th coat of finish on a project that is coming together fairly well. I am doing it in heated garage workshop that includes a 15" surface planer, 5hp table sa w, wood lathe and other power and hand tools I have accumulated over 30 or

40 years of woodworking and general tinkering.

A project like this gave me lots of reasons to think. The table is made of a combination of red and white oak, rather artfully combined. I wonder if material use was really artistic or just the use of available material in a small, shop. The red oak top is made of 4" wide boards that were edge jo ined with a modified tongue and groove edge. The under-frame and slide mec hanism, that allows it to be expanded, needed a little work. Some of the do uble-dovetail slides were damaged. I was able to "duplicate" these parts o n the table saw but I noticed the old ones still showed slight tool marks e ven after years of use.

Then the legs. The table has five 4" diameter lathe turned legs. The top and bottom 6"-8" are artfully turned spindles with decorative rings, etc. Everything else is a graceful rope turn design that kept us busy for days g ently removing the old finish with toothbrushes. The other morning I laid them out side-by-side before starting the staining process. That is when i t occurred to me they are not duplicates. They are damned near duplicates-

-but there are small variations in the width of the turned rings, the coves , the depth of the groove in the rope area etc. I noticed variations becau se I was looking for them but it is clear that the lathe was loaded five ti mes for five legs. Then I looked over at the 14" JET lathe near the wall of my shop and shook my head wondering if these pieces of craftsmanship wer e turned on a water or foot operated machine.

My wife and I have built a few pretty nice projects over our years includin g some hardwood rocking horses that have sold or raffled well . We have al so finished out our entire home.

We are rank amateurs!

RonB

[Leon]

Take heart in knowing that back then it was probably a more common thing for people to know how to do this type work and the opportunity to learn or be taught was more available then as it is today. Surely, regardless of the tools used, there are forgotten tricks and techniques that made those tools of 100 years ago more effective in the hands of the craftsman than now with few left that may know those techniques. Think about the great pyramids. ;~)

On the other hand, most of us today are self taught, and that is a testament to accomplishment too.

[Sonny]

Yep. And on a, somewhat, similar note, my niece's son once ask me to make a new Harry Potter magic wand.... he had broken his.... with braided-carved handle, kinna like gunstock carvings. That carving wasn't so easy a job as I had initially thought it would be.

Sonny

[RonB]

an antique oak table. The table is a family heirloom that goes back at lea st 100 to 120 years. My folks had already stripped and stained it in the 1

950's so preservation of patina was not a concern.

coat of finish on a project that is coming together fairly well. I am doin g it in heated garage workshop that includes a 15" surface planer, 5hp tabl e saw, wood lathe and other power and hand tools I have accumulated over 30 or 40 years of woodworking and general tinkering.

e of a combination of red and white oak, rather artfully combined. I wonde r if material use was really artistic or just the use of available material in a small, shop. The red oak top is made of 4" wide boards that were edg e joined with a modified tongue and groove edge. The under-frame and slide mechanism, that allows it to be expanded, needed a little work. Some of th e double-dovetail slides were damaged. I was able to "duplicate" these par ts on the table saw but I noticed the old ones still showed slight tool mar ks even after years of use.

top and bottom 6"-8" are artfully turned spindles with decorative rings, et c. Everything else is a graceful rope turn design that kept us busy for da ys gently removing the old finish with toothbrushes. The other morning I l aid them out side-by-side before starting the staining process. That is wh en it occurred to me they are not duplicates. They are damned near duplica tes--but there are small variations in the width of the turned rings, the c oves, the depth of the groove in the rope area etc. I noticed variations b ecause I was looking for them but it is clear that the lathe was loaded fiv e times for five legs. Then I looked over at the 14" JET lathe near the w all of my shop and shook my head wondering if these pieces of craftsmanship were turned on a water or foot operated machine.

uding some hardwood rocking horses that have sold or raffled well . We hav e also finished out our entire home.

You hit on a very important and unfortunate point Leon. The "opportunity" to learn. I know of a few young ones that would like to take some woodwork ing classes in junior high or high school. I only know of one that that th e opportunity that I had when I was young. For various reasons, liability being the main one, schools have dropped wood classes with no plans to get back in. The old, really old, Unisaw that I used in high school is sittin g at the end of the current agriculture shop being use for occasional cutof f work or as a table. The instructor is wood-trained but said the schools don't want to take on the liability of a kid getting injured - football is OK, but not woodworking. She also said the introduction of Saw Stop techno logy isn't helping because the smaller programs cannot afford to replace pe rfectly good Unisaws with new machines.

Very unfortunate in our area. Pittsburg State University (Kansas) is 35 mi les away and they have one of the top woodworking programs in the country. Westhoff Interiors, a leading Yacht interior company, is on the north edge of our town. Westhoff draws some kids into training programs but their be st trained come from Pitt State, which in turn pulls students from other ar eas. Other than the Joplin area there are few local opportunities for wood classes.

Ron

[Leon]

It is sad. Our country is becoming soooooo politically correct and recklessness letting the lawyers go after any one that might do something as simple as teach some one how to strike a match that we are loosing the ability to actually think and innovate. Let alone do for ourselves. The thinking that it would be too expensive to spend $5K to replace a new saw is ludicrous. The life long skills that could be taught in a wood shop would be thousands of times less expensive than incarcerating those that have no other skill and peddle crack on the street corner. For some odd reason our mentality is switching over to the idea of knowing how to do "ONE" thing that requires no thinking. The grocery store cashier from the 70's would look like a genius compared to those that take you money these days.

[Leon]

AND Jeez. Our president wants to make community colleges free to all!

I can appreciate the gesture but that is only going to appeal to those that should not be going to college in the first place. A free college for all will be no different than adding more years to high school. It will be free so the vast majority that did not want to be in school in the first place will be there taking up space. I am of the firm belief that 90% of the students that don't directly pay for their higher education will get less from it, what do they have to loose? If you want a lower quality education choose one that is funded by the tax payers. If you want a lower quality health care system, choose one funded by the tax payers.

I will get down off of my soap box. ;~)

AND I did not mean to hi-jack your thread, I did appreciate your thoughts on how much more adapt we as a society were 100 years ago.

[Keith Nuttle]

You can not suppress an educated independent population

[RonB]

f an antique oak table. The table is a family heirloom that goes back at l east 100 to 120 years. My folks had already stripped and stained it in the 1950's so preservation of patina was not a concern.

h coat of finish on a project that is coming together fairly well. I am do ing it in heated garage workshop that includes a 15" surface planer, 5hp ta ble saw, wood lathe and other power and hand tools I have accumulated over

30 or 40 years of woodworking and general tinkering.

ade of a combination of red and white oak, rather artfully combined. I won der if material use was really artistic or just the use of available materi al in a small, shop. The red oak top is made of 4" wide boards that were e dge joined with a modified tongue and groove edge. The under-frame and sli de mechanism, that allows it to be expanded, needed a little work. Some of the double-dovetail slides were damaged. I was able to "duplicate" these p arts on the table saw but I noticed the old ones still showed slight tool m arks even after years of use.

e top and bottom 6"-8" are artfully turned spindles with decorative rings, etc. Everything else is a graceful rope turn design that kept us busy for days gently removing the old finish with toothbrushes. The other morning I laid them out side-by-side before starting the staining process. That is when it occurred to me they are not duplicates. They are damned near dupli cates--but there are small variations in the width of the turned rings, the coves, the depth of the groove in the rope area etc. I noticed variations because I was looking for them but it is clear that the lathe was loaded f ive times for five legs. Then I looked over at the 14" JET lathe near the wall of my shop and shook my head wondering if these pieces of craftsmansh ip were turned on a water or foot operated machine.

cluding some hardwood rocking horses that have sold or raffled well . We h ave also finished out our entire home.

ty" to learn. I know of a few young ones that would like to take some wood working classes in junior high or high school. I only know of one that tha t the opportunity that I had when I was young. For various reasons, liabil ity being the main one, schools have dropped wood classes with no plans to get back in. The old, really old, Unisaw that I used in high school is si tting at the end of the current agriculture shop being use for occasional c utoff work or as a table. The instructor is wood-trained but said the scho ols don't want to take on the liability of a kid getting injured - football is OK, but not woodworking. She also said the introduction of Saw Stop te chnology isn't helping because the smaller programs cannot afford to replac e perfectly good Unisaws with new machines.

5 miles away and they have one of the top woodworking programs in the count ry. Westhoff Interiors, a leading Yacht interior company, is on the north edge of our town. Westhoff draws some kids into training programs but thei r best trained come from Pitt State, which in turn pulls students from othe r areas. Other than the Joplin area there are few local opportunities for wood classes.

Yeah but budgets is budgets and rural schools, such as ours, feel the crunc h. We have an excellent school that only exists because locals came up wit h a large amount of cash to supplement a bond issue to build a needed high school. Our alumni association manages a portfolio that pays a $30K annual payment against the bond and at the end of the 30 year bond period we wil l pay off the rest. We run fund raisers and beg to get together enough ca sh for lights for a baseball field. Then we hear about the poor KC area s chools who are afraid they might not be able to afford an indoor practice f acility until next year. Academic metrics for our school are among the bes t but we struggle constantly for survival.

Oh Well. I guess that was a digression. :o)

[Max]

Yessir. I can't imagine producing some of the wooden treasures that true craftsmen turned out using just hand tools. I have built some projects of which I am somewhat proud but I had the advantage of purpose made tools that allowed me to do it.

I am a woodworker but they were artists.

[Swingman]

Depends upon who is in charge of the educating and what their agenda is.

This country has had more money thrown at education than ever before in human history (Detroit school system a case in point), is more suppressed than ever with rights continually under assault by the government and militarized police forces, with more folks in jail (many corporate, for profit systems), more in poverty, and the majority so poorly educated, to the point of barely being qualified to flip burgers, that we must rely on visas to fill the spots that require something other than a basket weaving curriculum.

[Lew Hodgett]

------------------------------------------------ It's only "FREE" if you maintain a 2.5 GPA.

That's a little tough to do if you are one of the jerk heads you describe above.

Lew

[krw]

If you think a college education is expensive now, just wait until it's free!

Was listening to a talk show about this exact issue yesterday. The host had gone to Germany to participate in an education seminar. The German participants, without exception, agreed with you.

[krw]

2.5? Bs and Cs? In today's colleges? Sheesh!

[Keith Nuttle]

You forgot to mention the children that wake up in the morning turn on the tablet, or computer and text all day until the go to bed that night. Their parents don't notice as they sit around the living room texting all of the people they are aware, of and ignore the kids.

With this system, we are developing a dysfunctional society with no skills for physical iterating with the people around them. Kids that think they are being harassed if you look at them cross eyed, and get their parent to take person to court for harassing their children.

It is a losing proposition

[Bill]

The "values" taught by the media (tv, movies, dramas, etc.?) don't help. How many of them sit around once in a while with a book in their hand? Get at least get a few to the newsgroup (what's that?) rec.woodworking where they might gainfully learn to fix a sink! ;)

[DerbyDad03]

I don't consider it a "system", I consider it bad personal choices on the p art of the parents.

I've got 2 kids in graduate school, another with a BS degree working in his field of study, and a fourth with a pretty good job considering he decided that college was not for him at this time.

I feel that I played a huge part in their success.

For many years my family was deeply involved in Soap Box Derby racing. 3 of the 4 kids qualified for the World Championship Race in Akron, OH multiple times (7 trips in total). One of them won the World Championship in the to p division. One rule I had is that they didn't race if they didn't work on their own cars. Did I expect them to put in as many hours as I did? No, the y had other commitments, but I made sure that they were involved in every a spect of the builds especially at the beginning of each new process. They w ere introduced to metal work, bondo, fiberglass, bondo, weight distribution , bondo, etc. Did I mention bondo? It wasn't just about learning hands-on s kills, it was more about teaching them that rewards require hard work and w hile hard work doesn't guarantee rewards, it greatly increases the possibil ity.

Yes, they text from sun up to sun down (and in between) but many of those t exts are to me. They also know when to put down the phone and concentrate o n the tasks at hand.

My point is that we can't blame a "system". There is no rule book for paren ting, there are only common sense practices that point your kids down the r ight path. It's up to the parents.

I feel like a winner.

[Max]

Bingo! Parental involvement.

[knuttle]

I agree it is the parents. It starts with the little kid when you bring him home from the hospital. At that point you start to develop his moral and social value system. During this time you help him develop his basic respect for friends, family, neighbors, the police and other institutions. ie doing unto others what they would have others do unto them. not coveting the things your neighbor has, there are several other valid rules to follow.

The problem that I mentioned above is that the parents of these kids think it is acceptable when people come over to their house to go to the computer in the back room and only appear periodically. OR to set around the room with their guest ignoring them and texting to the worlds. They are setting a great example for the kids with their parent behavior, see nothing wrong with the same behavior.

PS: I to think I did well with my kids also. Both are college graduates, and have good jobs. Both have been in stable marriages for nearly 20 years, and while the one can not have children the other is raising to nice grandsons for me.

[DerbyDad03]

On Friday, January 30, 2015 at 12:17:12 PM UTC-5, keith [e-mail] w rote:

...snip...

...snip...

It makes you wonder what the parent's parents were like. Mine were fairly s trict and I know that my grandparents were even more so, at least on my dad 's side. I didn't realize how much I really liked/understood my dad until I was already out of the house and raising my own kids. It took longer than it should have for it all to sink in. I'm extremely thankful that my kids s eem to have gotten the picture much sooner than I did. I can't say for sure that they didn't like me when they were younger, but they sure do now. Not as much as they like mom...that's a competition I'll never win - nor would I want to. ;-)

[Leon]

Well that would make a difference.... Whew! But still, I don't think you could expect anything much better that a HS teacher instructing the class.