Bob:
The 120 gal tank is approximately 41/2 ft tall and about 30 inches in diameter. We moved it from the truck in the driveway to the pad I poured in back of the garage with 3 guys and a hand truck. The driver claims they are about 500# filled and I believe it. You can lease them also. I am leasing this one and if I change suppliers, I will buy a used one for 50-75 dollars.
Mike
Does anyone have any problems with using an "open flame" type heater. The Borg has a natural gas "blue flame" heater that I've been looking at. It does take a connection to the natural gas line in the house.
Would I have a problem if I was doing some staining or other finish work? What about sanding and generating fine dust?
The Borg (and Lowes) also have a ceramic heater, but they don't look big enough or powerful enough to heat my shop space. Anyone have any experience with those?
Thanks -
Nick B
I have a 13 x 28 shop and use one of the borg ceramic models (18K BTU maybe) and it is more than adequte. there is some fumes created from the burning of dust in the air and "conversion" of the finishing fumes. I would not spray in the shop but just small touch ups.
Bruce
Nick Bozovich wrote:
I have the same tank and as long as I use a minimum of 300 gals the tank is free, otherwise it is $60 for the year.
Bruce
Mike wrote:
My Propane suppliers price ...delivered to my tank are about 60 cents a gallon cheaper then if he delivers to their (my) LEASED tank... that is a heck of a price difference!
They quoted me a price of about 400 dollars to purchase a 440 ???? (crazy nomenclature) tank which would hold about 120 gallons...
Would love to find a used tank in the Baltimore-Washington-Frederick-Hagerstown area....
Bob Griffiths
Open flame carries the usual cautions of flamable paints, solvents, etc. Shops often have gas cans and lawnmowers with fuel. Use your head there.
I do a little staining with my heater on. (I'd never spraypaint though.) Not enough to cause any explosion problems, but the fumes do pass through the flame and burn. Of course they leave an odor when they do. You need more than normal ventilation.
Do you mean those little ceramic cubes? They are 1500 watts and have no more power than any other 1500 watt space heater. 1500 watts = 5118 Btu. My propane heater is 30,000 Btu. Depends on what you really need. Ed
YOU are playing with your life. Any solvents or finishes in that small of a shop without exceptional ventilation, could be disastorios. Just because it has not happened yet, does not mean it won't.
By the way, ever seen a dust explosion? My guess is no.
A ceramic heater could be used as a pre-heater, if no fumes are present, but do not use them as primary heat, unless absolutely sure there are no significant amounts of solvents or dusts in the air. It sometimes does not take much of either, at the wrong place, to cause a big problem.
Btu's is what we need to help you. Also, size and how well insulated, and airtight.
And I'd love to find one in the Bedford, VA area, but will guess that any local dealers will refuse to fill said tank, because it hasn't been "properly tested." We just priced out getting rid of our leased tank, with totals for a
300 gallon (give or take) tank running something like $900.I'll lease until the gas furnace goes, then stick in another oil furnace. I really, really regret taking a couple bits of advice from buddies: one, install gas--it's cleaner, cheaper, etc. Bullshit. It's cleaner. It is NOT cheaper than oil, except on a basis that no longer exists. Second bit of advice: lease a tank and buy one when you've got more cash. You will almost certainly NEVER have more case available than at the time you install the unit, so buy the sucker THEN!
With an oil furnace, I'd have spent maybe $500 more at the outset, but the damned oil tank was and is still in place and ready to go. New filter and fire it up. If I'd needed a new tank, IIRC, the price is about $250-$300. Installed.
Charlie Self "Ain't no man can avoid being born average, but there ain't no man got to be common." Satchel Paige
I seriously doubt that, I don't spray any finishes and the heater is on all the time so the vapors do not build up. yes there is plenty of ventilation. I have asthma and if I can still breathe then there is no explosion danger. Do you sell sealed combustion furnaces? i can see no other reason to be so dramatic about a situation that exists in about every 3rd garage through the sate and I do not remember seeing a rash of articles in the paper where the garage blew up. be realistic! this is absurd as grounding your DC so it doesn't blow up.
yes i have experience with grain silos and loose hay storage. In order to create an environment that would produce a dust explosion you would not be able to see to the other end of the shop. the ratio of dust to air has to be quite high. the presence of a combustion source, pilot light, reduces the chance of that explosion due to "burn off".
BRuce
Morgans wrote:
yep, what he said. there are some odd smells when the vapors burn off as there is with the dust. Like everything else we do in the shop, think first and walk through the possibilities of danger.
BRuce
Edw>>Does anyone have any problems with using an "open flame" type heater. The
I've seen the remains of a grain elevator after one. Not a pretty sight. With that said, it's my understanding that the atmosphere has to be generally unliveable by humans before you get a concentration likely to combust.
todd
You are right, about the zone where the explosions started being "unliveable". Grain elevators are a different environment. The dust level in a very large area is more or less constant. In a shop explosion, one small area with dust and flame, usually has the dust put into the air by a small, localized disturbance, i.e., blowoff hose, ruptured air line, a few pallets or sheets of stock falling over. That is then enough to trigger a chain reaction, that can be enough (given, in these examples, on a larger scale) to blow out walls, lift roofs, and start flash fires, and kill a good many people, all in one incident.
It does happen. I have seen the proof, of people in an inspected "liveable" plant, all consumed by dust explosions. Rare, but hardly able to be ignored.
YOU are not.
*****************
You are being nieve. Ever seen what can (and will) happen when contact adhesive is used around open flame? That isn't spraying. Lots of other solvents are nearly that flamable. __________________
Do you sell sealed combustion furnaces? i can see no
*************************How many garages have open flames around solvents or finishes. Not 1 in 3. Not many, because most are smart enough not to use solvents around open flame. Think there is a reason why pilot lights have to be elevated 18" above the floor in a garage for a reason? I do.
As far as the crack about me selling furnaces, give me a break. ________________________
this is
*************************I live in the heart of the largest area of furniture production in the country. Dust explosions happen all of the time in plants where the air is considered very breathable, by even OSHA's own standards.
All widespread dust explosion takes is a small zone of favorable factors, in a small area. The explosion then displaces air,(makes wind) and causes vibrations that puts more settled dust into the air, thus causing a "wave" of explosion zone that gets ever larger and more intense. If you think this is myth, or that it won't happen to you, wise up. It probably won't happen to you, but I don't gamble with lives, when there is no need to. For sure don't give advise saying there is absolutely no risk. YOU are absolutely misinformed, and WRONG.
yep, nobody has a gas heater in the garage, nobody welds or uses a cutting torch in the garage. nobody uses "torpedo heaters" in a garage. yep all those garages with their lawn mowers, gas cans, mineral spirits etc and all those sources of ignition and MOST garage fires caused by spontaneous combustion of an oily rag NOT ignition of a handful of dust.
As for gambling with lives, not a chance. gas lines tested to 30PSI, no PVC for air lines, all electrical above local code and all guards in place. Explosion from cutting a piece of plywood or wiping finish on
2x4 foot piece of wood, just isn't going to happen. I'm not saying it hasn't because i have not read every accident report in the world but if it did it would have the same likelihood as getting hit with an airplane wheel. As in all things there are extremes, this news group has many of them.BRuce
Morgans wrote:
what part of NC, so I can stay away. wouldn't want to drive through and stir up any dust and inadvertently burn the town down.
BRuce
Morgans wrote:
I'm goin to backtrack just a bit. Can you post an article where a garage or hobbyest shop had one of these dust or solvent based incidents? not a grain silo, not a plastics manufacturing plant, just an ordinary home shop or garage.
With some actual facts even I could change my opinion. I am basing my opinion on my experience and lack of evidence that it does happen.
BRuce
Morgans wrote:
I'm new here so I won't call you a fool.
Here's an excerpt from my posting in the 'building a shop' thread:
Heating: Here's where my friends and I got into a bit of a row. They kept trying to get me to install a wood burner. Granted a wood burner would be cheaper to use (woods plentiful here) but there is no way to extinguish it NOW. Something happens where a bunch of fumes get into the air and I could be a fireball. I opted for a used oil furnace (can't wait to get it installed). Because an oil burner is forced induction I can pull combustion air from outside reducing the explosion / fire hazard. Plus it can be disabled by a breaker or switch.
Stay away from unvented heaters/ heaters that put exhaust back into the workspace. I.E.: Torpedo or catalyst heaters, K1, LPG or natural gas. 1) These put phenomenal amounts of moisture into the air. You would be begging to rust up your tools. What's more important though is 2) what's in the air gets burnt and put back into the air you breath. Lots of the materials we use make fumes that aren't healthy in the first place, heat or burn them changing the compounds into God knows what and your playing a game of roulette.
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