Does anyone besides Delta offer a tablesaw without a fence? I actually have a nice fence without a good saw to put it on (it was a good deal, I figured the rest would fall into place) :( I like the look of the Delta
36-979 and I should be able to go higher in price a bit if I need to.
A nice fence on a bad tablesaw is not such a bad thing. You may very well be able to buy one without a fence, since many fences are another brand and often sold separately. Don't put too much value on appearance of a saw--that can fool you. Some of my best tools are ugly.
Delta offers a tablesaw without a fence?
From Amazon: Delta 36-979 10-Inch Left-Tilt 1-1/2 Horsepower Contractor Saw with No Fence
Lowes offers this locally as well.
Problem is the nice fence doesn't fit my bad saw. The fence is a T2 the saw is a delta 36-600. The small table, universal motor saw. Great small saw, but ...
TImes have changed. Used to be a strict Delta policy that fence had to be sold with a saw. Dealer could mix and match if they wanted, but they were expected to sell a fence with a saw.
Product liability issue. (Potential Plantiff: " I didn't know I had to have a fence to use this thing"?) Same with the blade. UL/CSA didn't trust you to apply the proper blade, consequently to be listed you had to provide a blade. Thus the many thousands of cheap stamped steel blades that get thrown away immediately.
Frank
Yup sell a saw with out a fence and you loose $200-$300 in sales with each saw. B&D apparently sees things differently.
I suspect that was what Delta wanted every one to believe, but I suspect a loss in sales would be the real reason. Seems that the fence should have been installed at the factory had they really thought some one might use the saw with out a fence. Delta knows good an well that parts not installed at the factory often don't get put on when the customer get it. Take the guard for instance. BUT you never know what makes some companies tick.
Same with the blade. UL/CSA
I'm curious, what blade would not be proper on a TS, one that could result in legal problems?
I've got two thoughts on this.
Some people will buy a saw and be perfectly happy with a cheapie blade because it is their first saw and inexperience won't allow them to know differently.
And for an improper blade, maybe a metal cutting blade, like those fiber(?) things that are used for cutting sheet metal. Yeah, I know someone would have to be pretty green to put one of those on and expect nice cuts in oak, but we're also dealing with the same public that didn't know coffee was hot and sued so that warning labels are put on coffee cups.
Actually, I used one of those fiber blades on my TS to cut the initial slot in my zero clearance insert. It was small enough to fit under the insert.
Let's see, we had the two highest selling by volume fence systems and we were afraid we would lose sales. And it doesn't matter what we thought about whether someone would be foolish enough to use the unit without a fence, what mattered was the story a plantiffs lawyer could concoct. Additionally, we, for most of that time, were the only manufacturer whose industrial units were UL listed. May still be, I haven't kept up, don't really care anymore. But you're free to suspect what you want, I was there part of the discussions, but no longer have a horse in that race in any way. I was simply commenting on the change in policy.
Installed at the factory. Little tough to ship that way. That is why everyone uses master box systems to tie multiple boxes to a single model number.
You would have to ask UL/CSA that question. It was their requirement not Delta's. We (Tupelo domestic) proposed the addition of a blade coupon to be placed on the arbor instead of a blade, offering a substantial discount on the blade of your choice and reducing the cost/price of the unit. Could not be done because of the UL/CSA listing.
Frank
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There is no doubt that you had the highest selling by volume, fence systems, I don't have those figures in front of me but that is a very credable statement and I would agree with out need of proof. But if you dont sell a saw with out a fence that helps to insure high fence sale volume regardless of whether the customer wanted a Beis or Unifence. For you to not include the possibility the fact that Delta was in the the business to manufacutre equipment and make a profit is probably speaking a half trugh. Agreed, the fences being included does indeed help in preventing the possibility of litigation for the reason you mentioned but I highly suspect that Delta also knew that not including the fence with the saw would cost more in lost sales than losses from possible law suits. I am sure they and their lawyers had data from other manufacturers to look at, including the manufacturers that did not require a fence with the saw sale. It certainly makes answering the question, why can't I buy a Delta TS with out a fence easier using the possibility of a law suit as a reason, because we want to make more money does not seem as focused on customer safety on the sales floor when you are face to face with the customer. For certain the requirement of a fence generated more revenue, possibly it negated some law suits.
Understood and I totally agree, but including a fence with the saw does not insure that the customer will use the fence as it does not insure that the customer will use the saw with out a guard.
I see, I probably missed that point some where. Did the UL/CSA also require the fence? Again I probably missed that point if you mentioned it earlier, and if it did require the fence I totally agree with your originally comments. I have the utmost respect for your experience and especially what you have been through with Delta. I have been in similar shoes when it comes to the pride in your work and product and to see it turn out differently that you had hoped. I wish you well.
All points above well taken. Sure about the blade think the fence was also a requirement, policy so entrenched and strict. Dealers not so encumbered and many wanted to buy base units, fences, al a carte. It actually cost Delta money when high volume dealers, with, in my veiw, valid complaints, forced inventory resets to get their, unit/fence inventory matched out.
The UL/CSA listing forced other strange things. For instance, we developed a stock guard that could be set in an upright position to facilitate the changing of blades. The intepretation of UL/CSA clauses regarding guards caused the introduction of that improvement to be delayed until after our non-listed competitors introduced theirs and the UL/CSA wording was changed.
The much safer aftermarket guards, ours and competitors, were not so encumbered, because they were not sold with the saws and not UL listed. One of the reasons, I believe, you never saw any special editions that had the better, safer, aftermarket guards as part of the master box package.
Thanks, and I wish you well also.
Frank
Well in the UK apparently dado blades can't be used safely at all - so no domestic saw comes with a long enough shaft to fit one. Ridiculous.
If 'merkins can use them safely I'm sure we Brits can!
Can not!
I'd flick you the bird but, well, I was using this tablesaw, see, and...
Yeah you UK'ers need 2 fingers to do the bird. Over here we only need the single digit. LOL
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