Drawer side stock?

[dpb]

Yes, obviously that's the total out of the drawer opening, not the difference. That's still quite a lot to sacrifice in smaller kitches. Still a half-inch in a 12 inch drawer is noticeable and when added up over more than one...

The tradeoff there is the depth, though. There's no free lunch... :)

I replaced a set of the old single undermount roller w/ the front side rollers w/ a centermount slide type that is also able to fit in the 3/8" bottom lip thickness as a trial here. It's pretty good excepting for the 3/4 length pullout. I'm looking at the possibility of using an overlong slide for the drawer to get extra extension but haven't gotten around to actually doing it.

I've not done a new kitchen in over 20 yr where the sizes are so huge any more--even in the old houses in Lynchburg often kitchens were very small comparatively (many of them actually had the "real" kitchen in the basement or an outbuilding for the staff rather than being in the house as a full-fledged kitchen as we know it today so they had to be scavenged room taken from other adjoining areas which generally meant they were also small. The kitchen in the old farm house here which was an add-on in the 20s to the house built in the early/mid-teens has only about six feet of _total_ counter length and that includes that 4-ft of it is around a 90 that has a lazy susan in it for storage. There si space for only three drawers along the counter top row so even a half inch is a loss.

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[dpb]

On 1/18/2013 12:46 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote: ...

Not sure that was me, but can't disagree w/ the point...

Bottom has the aesthetics; see my reply to Karl regarding the dimensions. They take a fair amount of depth which may (or may not) be less of an issue than width as far as usability/loss of room.

There's hardly anywhere better for cabinet hardware than Woodworker's Hardware

[DerbyDad03]

You are right...it was Swingman's post I was referring to.

Thanks for the link.

[Swingman]

:) Well, that's what you would think ... but, that is not necessarily the case when it comes to modern drawer slides, as non-intuitive as it sounds.

With the undermounts I've been using lately (KV MuV), you actually deduct less from the width of cabinet opening, _the thicker the side material_.

IOW, you actually make your drawers wider with thicker material. Here is chart from the manufacturer that I use in my spreadsheets for dimensioning drawer widths for the kitchens we've been building lately:

Drawer Width DwrThickness DeductfromCabOpening

5/8" (16mm) 3/8" (10mm) 9/16" (14mm) 9/16" (14mm) 1/2" (13mm) 5/8" (16mm)

Max Drawer Height = Opening Minus 13/16" (20mm)

Note that that's total, NOT per side, and it illustrates that things are no longer as they used to be with modern slides (IOW, no longer the blanket 1" as with the sidemount you mentioned).

In effect, that means you can make your drawers wider and gain/offset interior width with thicker drawer sides than previously possible with the older style slides.

And, as you said yourself: "when added up over more than one..." :)

[Swingman]

Check out KV's MuV (Knape & Vogt) premium undermount drawer slides.

Very nice slide, smooth as silk action, and I've found they perform equally with any of Blum's comparable slides at a better price, and they are easier to install.

I've used the MuV's in three full blown kitchens and one remodel now, and I like them better then my old favorites that I used for years, Hettich slides ... the MuV's are much less fussy to install, and a good bit more forgiving with regard to fit.

The Hettich's are excellent slides, but are bears for requiring an absolute perfect fit.

[Swingman]

That's another thing that will surprise many folks about the modern kitchen user, it did me at one point.

I've designed and built quite a few custom kitchens in the past 12 years and, in doing so, one thing is notable ... when you sit down with someone to discuss all the details of a custom kitchen _design_ , you do so with the goal of finding out what is important to them, as individuals ... and things are seldom what you would expect.

Drawer _height_ is a perfect example.

I can't recall one client in ten years who has asked for taller drawers.

Almost without exception, modern kitchen users seem to prefer a shallower drawer than the actualy cabinet opening will accommodate.

Deeper drawers hold more stuff, but in layers, and the modern kitchen user will quickly tell you they would rather have more drawers, than taller drawers, and without having to dig through layers of "stuff".

In short, drawer side height is not as big a concern when designing a kitchen as it once was, and you rarely have to design to maximize for the cabinet opening as you once did.

And that's a relief, since, as a rule, undermount slides require 1/2" clearance at the bottom to operate, you can actually use thicker drawer bottoms without fear of taking up too much drawer interior real estate.

Thicker bottoms make for a stronger drawer, and one that sounds so much more "expensive" when the lady of the house first opens one ... I've seen them stand there and open and close every drawer in a new kitchen for thirty minutes, with a smile on their face. :)

[John Grossbohlin]

I replaced the drawers in my vintage built-in kitchen cabinets with solid wood drawers that I put together with hand cut dovetails. I didn't use drawer slides... rather I fit them to the casework like I would drawers in a fine piece of furniture. It is the same approach Frank Klauz presents on his dovetail DVD.

Because each drawer was built to properly fit the opening they slide in and out just fine on a coat of paste wax. Old school perhaps but they work with the kitchen and they function well. Also, to use slides I would have had to build structure in the cabinet to which slides could be mounted--that would have been an annoying venture.

John

[Swingman]

I bet they are beautiful and work wonderfully as you described.

Rest assured I certainly appreciate what you accomplished and I can, and will do exactly that for a client, if that is really what they want ... for that is name of the game, and the keys to the kingdom.

Reality however, is that most will head to Ikea quicker than you can drop you're hat when they find out they won't get their self closing drawers, soft close pullout pantries, toekick drawers, custom pot pullouts, lazy Susan corner cabinet inserts, and drawer dishwasher cabinets ...

... that is, if they don't choke on today's labor costs of your above beforehand. :)

All that notwithstanding, my hat's off to you. Got some photos? ... I would genuinely love to see it. :)

[dpb]

...

The loss comes in trying to get in more shallower in the same space as fewer taller. In the layout I described earlier, there's one reasonably deep one at the bottom that works well for dishtowels, etc., and two of appropriate size above for utensils, etc.

If I were to do this one over again from scratch (I did the roughin cabinetry for folks in the early/mid-80s when they redid the old house) I'd likely do as the other poster above mentioned--just fit cabinet drawers instead. It would be a pita now to add the internal casework to set 'em on, but it could be done....I might give a rethink at least a little before I do any more of the swap out of the worn out roller ones Dad used...

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[dpb]

That's 'cuz they sit in the corner of the frame opening and the distance thereto is therefore fixed. If I were to use one for these very small spaces, I'd likely make the bottom match the distance then essentially take the rabbet idea previously mentioned and extend it the full interior drawer depth to keep the outer dimension tolerances but still have the thinner drawer side visible. Building it that way would probably entail a glue joint of the two thickness pieces, then cut to final width. _I_ really do not like the visual thickness whatever the current housewife thinks! :)

For them back to the depth, I just looking at the datasheet--there's

1/2" min under bottom to drawer side bottom and 9/16 more to the rail clearance. So there's 17/16" plus bottom thickness out of the opening.

The drawers here have 3/8" to drawer side + 1/8" above rail clearance a net gain of 14/16" for same bottom thickness.

Now, granted, there's no self-closing feature and the centermount KV isn't nearly what the MuV is in capacity but it works better in the constrained spaces here...

_IF_ (the proverbial big if) I were in the business of satisfying somebody else and selling in today's market, that would be an entirely different animal...fortunately, I've been able to get out of that environment for 10+ yr now...it's only Mom Nature and drought, plague, input costs and farm program uncertainties that control now! :)

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[Swingman]

In practice it actually comes out to 13/16" out of the cabinet opening for the max drawer height that can be used for the slides I mentioned ... use that figure for them and you can take it to the bank that your drawer height will fit nicely with sufficient clearance ... see above, taken from the data sheet parameters for those slides, and used to actually build five or six dozen drawers for the slides that were mentioned, not just talk about them. :)

[Larry Jaques]

Bravo! I had the pleasure and honor of attending some of Frank's seminars and to work with (for) him at a WW show years back. Great guy. Best dovies in the world, too.

Mine are cheaper plywood drawers, but they're on wax, too. With he exception of the tool drawer, they all slide easily when waxed a couple/three times a year. I make sure to -declutter- them on those days, so it's really A Good Thing(tm).

That would have been a PITA.

-- The problem with borrowing money from China is that thirty minutes later, you feel broke again. --Steve Bridges as Obama

[John Grossbohlin]

No photos at this point... the kitchen is still in process in that I've been stripping the frames and cabinet fronts so I can repaint the whole thing. Some minor repairs have been made to the frames and I also made a couple new cabinet doors. Quite frankly, it is in a state that it looks like Hell! LOL As my "whole house" renovation progresses the kitchen will be ripped out and reoriented. It will take me at least another 3-4-5 years to get to that point and I couldn't bear to live with the poorly functioning and damaged things that were there.

I understand the labor cost thing. I'm proficient at cutting the dovetails by hand and in fact do not own any kind of router jig to do so. If I were making a living at this and had 10, 20 or more drawers to do it would likely be a different story. In my case the materials used were all left overs from other projects so the drawers cost me next to nothing in terms of money.

I must say that the new drawers fit much better than the originals. The originals were undersized and would rack and droop so they did not slide smoothly. For a few hours work with left over materials it was one of those "good deal" projects.

John

[John Grossbohlin]

I met Frank a while back too. A show somewhere in PA as I recall. He was messing around with a European combination machine.

A couple years ago I gave lectures at the Northeastern Woodworkers Associations show in Saratoga Springs, NY where I cut dovetails much like Frank does... but I used all the "wrong" tools. I used a 12 pt. 22" cross cut panel saw, a marking gauge, pencil, 1/2" Marples carpenter's chisel, and a hammer. No dovetail saw, no bevel gauge, no ruler, no mallet...

The whole focus was on process and how to visually tell if you were cutting straight, which side of the line was waste, etc. Quite frankly I thought I lost the attendees as I was going through it in real time... the room got really quiet. I was relieved when I put the joint together as it went together with no messing around and no gaps... the group broke out in applause as they could see on the monitor, when the camera zoomed in tight on the joint, that it was a nice clean fit. I joked around a bit about how you don?t need mirrors, a million lines, landing lights off a 747, variable pitch dovetail saws, layout gizmos or things to hold the saw... keep a few basic things in mind and it works.

Speaking of the NWA Showcase, it's coming up on March 23-24. This year it was requested that I talk about woodworking with youth. This as my sons have been regular winners at the show since they were about 6 and 8 years of age. Doug Stowe and I are pretty much on the same page in regards to this and I ran a few things by him for his opinion. He has met my sons and over the years posted photos of them at work on his blog "Wisdom of the Hands." After that exchange I agreed to do the program.

John

[Larry Jaques]

I make them wrong, too. I don't like the old French LVT dovie saw, so I use my ryoba, Marples blue chips, and my Fox urethane mallet. Love them all dearly, but I don't do many dovies.

Goodonya, John.

Cool. Congrats, and have fun!

-- The problem with borrowing money from China is that thirty minutes later, you feel broke again. --Steve Bridges as Obama

[Swingman]

And that brings up a point with regard to material thickness and the use of modern metal drawer slides, which most likely points to a key, subliminal reason why professional designers go for the thicker materials in modern kitchens.

Besides "fit and finish", and "look and feel", the sense/aspect that ties both these together, as well as the overall perception of a magnificent job, is often unspoken and not consciously realized in the mind of the user ... the sound the components make in operation/use.

Thinner materials in drawers, in combination with modern metal drawer slides, often leave a vague, unsatisfying impression of cheapness in the mind of the user by the sound made when operating ... and I would imagine painfully so by those well schooled in traditional woodworking methods, like John G.

Many of us have experienced that cheap, hollow sound of a thin plywood bathroom vanity drawer, with 1/4" plywood bottoms, and .99 cent side mounted slides in homes with "builder grade" cabinets ... open a drawer in an upstairs bath at the other end of the house and you can hear it on the patio out back :)

A well made, "traditionally fitted" drawer, regardless of material thickness, and sliding on wood, won't normally leave you with that impression.

So, for those of us who must use modern methods and materials to make a living, a drawer made with thicker material, say 3/4 sides and 1/2" bottom, being heavier, and even when using less than top quality metal slides, will give a decided impression of quality simply through the sound made during operation because of its increased mass, something that is not often experienced with the lighter drawers made from thinner materials

Scoff at the above thought at your peril ... It is the sum of the little things like that that add up to you getting the big bucks, as well as the satisfaction, for your hard work. :)

[dadiOH]

I applaud your work and am not trying to rain on your parade; however, your drawers *ALSO* need an internal structure upon which they slide.

[dpb]

Don't (and didn't) "scoff" at the problem of inexpensive slides and _excessively_ cheap construction...the quality of the slide is probably

95+% of the problem in a well-built drawer not feeling solid; in much of the home box-store entry-level cabinets the stapled hardboard boxes themselves are just flimsy as well.

But, one can certainly take a box w/ hardwood sides and thinner profile and have it perform as nicely as needed--but it may well be that indeed to do so in scale and have a reasonable return essentially mandates the common form. Certainly today's glides are designed for it--one has to go to some lengths to work them into anything else and that, of course, is time which is the bane of production anything...

I'm certainly glad I'm in position to not have to be in production any longer--I'm too crotchety in my old age to do anything any way but how _I_ want it.. :)

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[Swingman]

You're damned sure that!

... then, so am I. :)

[dpb]

:)

I've spent most of last couple days repairing a very old chest that's stood in the basement for work gloves, etc., and a place to pile hats, etc., for as long as I can remember and the piece goes back to the '20s I'm sure.

It was initially a very nice factory-built piece of oak but the drawer sides and bottoms were red gum. It's a short piece so only two uppers/one lower; top about 5", bottom 7 or thereabouts deep. Three drawer sides had split/broken at the kerf for their bottoms and somebody (I presume Dad but it may have gone back to grandfather) had just tacked them up and gone on. I opened it the other morning to rifle thru for pair of heavier insulated gloves and the bottom of the top drawer fell completely out so that was impetus to fix the whole thing. Glue had pretty much failed in all joints so could knock the sides off the fronts (machine-cut dovetails w/ the rounded-over tails) so just trimmed off the bottom just below the last tail above the drawer kerfs on the bad sides and glued on a new piece of same thickness. Then, recut dadoes and the missing pin to match and made a new bottom for the lower drawer that had warped and cracked -- one of signs of the age of the piece; the drawers were 1/4" solid pieces of 14" in width--not ply.

Now that the drawers all fit and work again, Lynda thinks she wants it refinished and move it upstairs... :)

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