In my shop in the summer there is. Drywall on the bottom of the joists and
1/2" plywood on the top does a fair job of insulating. On a typical July
day the shop is hot and muggy, but attic is like an oven.
You need the cyclone kit, a blower housing (from me), an impeller
14" material-handling impeller from Sheldon's Engineering, a motor
(from Electric Motor Warehouse, a dust bin (fiber barrel or make one
from an air-tight plywood box with door and insert a polyethylene bin
(22 gallon size $5 at Home Depot), plus some ducting and a motor
starter/contactor with good overload/overcurrent protection device,
and duct work. Also a good final filter or pair of filters (from
Wynn Environmental. The details are on the budget-blower page at
Plan on spending $1100-1300 for a complete system, and do it right
the first time. You won't regret it. It's a lot like that
Crapsman 10" radial arm saw I bought in 1973 for $250 on sale and
the Rockwell/Delta Unisaw I bought for about $1100 in 1979. The
Unisaw was a much bigger bargain -- especially after I added my
own "T-square" fence I built and welded myself and a nice table
extension so I can cut 50" wide on it.
Mark Jerde wrote:
I prefer not to openly discuss my observations about this machine vs
other products because if I divulge what makes this design better than
theirs, especially in a public forum, that provides them with access to
engineering and design expertise at no cost. It also tempts some companies
whose scruples aren't stellar to find some excuse to try to shut me down
by threats of lawsuits, and that's no exaggeration. I've seen it done
in multiple instances to other people I know who were starting businesses
in the woodworking field.
Bill Pentz did some evaluation work for Oneida, and he speaks well of
them in comparison with some other popular brands, and they have a clean
reputation, more than certain others I am aware of, but they have a
somewhat different design philosophy from mine, which is what the world
is all about anyway, so I'll leave it at that.
My objective was as still is to put a first-rate quality product on the
market and let it speak for itself, rather than get into some kind of
"Consumer Reports" comparison of products. Besides, when Consumer Reports
has evaluated certain types of products in areas where I had extensive
expertise, I found myself rarely agreeing with their methods or their
It is helpful to be aware, when shopping as a consumer, that many major
companies are critically dependent, for their financial survival, to keep
consumers as ignorant as is humanly possible. This is especially true
in banking and finance, in the sale and promotion of non-durable consumer
goods (detergents, toiletries, cosmetics, nutrition, and many other areas),
and, unfortunately in the field of machine and woodworking tools. It is
often impossible to trust the "specifications" in a company's catalog, and
anyone with experience in air handling can see that the promoter of a
product is engaging in measurement techniques that cannot be independently
validated and coming up with numbers that are physically impossible in a
real-world, actual shop environment (I'm not referring to Oneida when I
say this, nor any other specific company in particular, but as a general
observation of companies whose principle market is not in commercial and
industrial applications where savvy engineers can see right through their
numbers with only minimal mental calculations.
To quote Bill O'Reilly of Fox News Channel, "I'm looking out for you."
What others do I am not particularly interested in.
As for the kits I produce vs. Oneida, theirs is a 2-HP system. Mine
uses a 5-HP motor. That should give a hint, at least on the surface.
I also recommend a good quality NEMA-rated Size 1
starter/controller/overload protection device. That's because I'm
looking out for you and don't want you to have a switch explode or
find your shop on fire due to overloaded motor or circuitry. I also
don't want you to have a "shocking" experience from improperly wired
or improperly grounded equipment. That's why I added a page to Bill
Pentz's site on motor protection and fire safety. It should be required
reading for every shop owner:
Andrew Barss wrote:
My "dream shop" has outstanding dust collection. In my mind, it has both a
cyclone that is used while the tools are on and an air circulation system
with basically the same components running most of the time. Both have a
"forest" of pleated filters. <g> Is it possible both can be combined into
one system? Can your design handle both? That is, if I open the blast gate
to the appropriately-located ducts, how large a space will your design clean
of dust in what timeframe?
I started college as a mechanical engineer but I switched to computer
science before I really learned enough to ask this question
intelligently.... I know a little about ASHRAE since I completed one
semester of that stuff. I was <4 credits from an ME minor when a good job
in CS took me away from the campus and my ME minor. ;-) Gotta follow the
bucks! Slider-crank and Rankin Cycle be d*mned! <g>
Unless you have an unusually large shop, just put a blast gate in a
"Y" in one of the ducts and open it. My shop is about 25 x 30 feet
with 8-foot ceiling. At 1200 CFM (being conservative here), that's
a complete air change every 5 minutes. It won't take long to clean
the air at that rate, even if you need it (which you might not -- at
least not very often). That's my plan for cleaning welding smoke and
other trash in the air, what little there is.
Just having the collector on normal tools I figure will drop dust in the
air by at least 90-95% even without being particularly careful on the
collection hoods. And with that kind of CFM, you could have a vacuum-
cleaning hose and intake for vacuuming the shop, then use a compressed
air gun to blow the dust off of benches and stuff to get it airborne
so the collector can pull it in. Beats a bench brush any day. :-)
I know about college courses not matching the real world. I got an
extended major in physics with my BA plus a minor in math and most
of a minor in business, along with some speech classes, industrial
arts, music, and the stuff you don't have time for in engineering school.
Plowed through the academics of an MSEE at Colorado State University
(didn't finish the tail-end stuff because I had a house to build for
our growing family), got registered as a professional engineer in
1980 (a PE beats an MS any day of the week), but after 9 years of
designing tooling for Hewlett-Packard, I went to marketing as a
senior technical writer and learning-products engineer where I spent
20 years producing technical manuals and online help systems, 3/4 of
that working with the HP-UX/Unix operating system. I am the principal
author of "The Ultimate Guide to the Vi and Ex Text Editors" which was
considered the best book on the subject in the entire industry for years.
I also did some general contracting and consulting on the side, so I got
a pretty broad range of experience, along with building a bus from
scratch (as in "Greyhound" size/type) that's still waiting for me to
get back to it. :-(
And yes, I was on the internet before AlBore, who supposedly invented it,
even knew what it was. :-) I also told some of HP's marketing types, when
they were discussing whether to call our computers "desktop computers" or
"workstations", that they should coin and copyright the term "personal
computer" before someone else does. Six months later, guess who...
Then I told my boss once we should come out with a series of books called
"Unix for Dummies", "Vi for Dummies", "Shell Programming for Dummies",
etc., but he said it would violate the company's "image". How many
yellow books for dummies have you seen? :-) :-) Dang, I get tired of
Life's too short not to stretch one's interests...
Mark Jerde wrote:
With all due respect, what is to prevent Oneida, Woodsucker, Penn State
and the others from purchasing one of your kits and reverse engineering
it? Wouldn't you'd want to fire a preemptive strike and be the first to
prove why your kit is better than their systems?
Fair enough, but I'm a curious sort and before I shell out $1300 for a
cyclone I have to build versus one I can bolt to the wall, I need more
data to analyze. I know that Ford and Chevy have different design
philosophies, but they both use motors, transmissions, and brakes. It
is in the analysis of the philosophical differences that allows me as a
consumer to decide what is best for me. While your kit's performance
sounds appealing, I can't afford to make a $1300 mistake.
Again, with all due respect, isn't this what you are doing by not
posting comparative analysis?
This is especially true
I find this to be a little patronizing. These statements sound like
you're not publishing your data for our own good. While some people are
taken in by marketing blather, many of us can understand and
differentiate between reality and bull$*!@.
Even though I'm not from Missouri, I do not know you. I appreciate the
sentiment, but whenever someone tells me they're looking out for me, I
instinctively grab my wallet and my balls. :-)
In closing, I don't think any of us want you to put everything on the
table without protecting yourself. I've been in business and I know
what is like to protect your intellectual property. But I also know
there comes a time when being first outweighs the possible loss of a
Regardless of your decision to publish your performance comparisons, I
wish you well with your venture.
Oneida sells such a model. (It may be patented). It looks to me like
one big disadvantage of that design is having to take the cone off
to get to the filter. I can barely get to the cone of my cyclone!
The cyclone works on the principle of centrifugal force. The dust is
thrown to the outside of the cyclone where it follows the cone wall
down to the dust-bin outlet at the bottom. Meanwhile, clean air is
stripped from the inside of the vortex (whirlwind) inside and is pulled
out the top center through the outlet tube.
A quality filter that traps 99.97% of the fine dust down to 0.3
microns in diameter (0.3 microns = 12 millionths of an inch) requires
a very large surface area in order to pass large air volumes (the
cyclone kit with recommended blower and filter packages can handle
over 1400 CFM at typical shop real-world working conditions), and
you cannot physically place real-world filters in the cyclone and
get that kind of capability. The cyclone already removes as much
as 54-15/16 gallons of sawdust out of 55 gallons (1 cup of fine dust
left over to be trapped by the filters) from the air stream. You
need large-area filters to get that last little bit and not get
plugged with the fine dust too quickly while keeping static pressures
down for better air volume which is the major key to effective
dust elimination from the shop atmosphere.
You're going to have a tough time improving on this design because
there is too much research and engineering that went into designing
the product, on top of the research and engineering that was done
by various industrial associations on cyclone design and operation
before this one was developed. This product is not based on somebody
tossing a fancy plastic lid on a trash can and calling it a "cyclone".
Mark Jerde wrote:
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