cabinet box material

[Steven Bornfeld]

Sorry if this is considered OT, but I thought people here would know. First-time poster here. I assume the google problem has left some people out, but figured I'd try anyway. We have to select someone to make kitchen cabinets for our house. We are considering a couple of places. One imports his cabinets from Europe. The boxes are made of what he calls "compressed wood". Our other potential place makes cabinets domestically. The boxes are plywood. The term "compressed wood" seems to be a catchall, including fiberboard, MDF, and a variety of other materials. From my ignorant web searching, it seems that most of these are used because they are cheaper (and apparently more uniform). Most sites also say they are heavier, more likely to absorb moisture, possibly more likely to warp, and may be more prone to fasteners (screws, etc.) to pull out. Our European guy says this is how things are done in Europe, and that all the most expensive cabinets are made of "compressed wood". To me that's a non-answer to my concerns. I should also say that I always considered plywood as something that is likely to split when placing screws. Anyone have any opinions regarding "compressed wood" vs. plywood for cabinet boxes? Or am I agonizing over a non-issue?

TIA. Steve

[Han]

Steven Bornfeld wrote in news:dLKdnT4QdOl_zdjTnZ2dnUVZ [e-mail]:

We are very satisfied with the kitchen cabinets from (I believe) Kraftsmaid, via Home Depot. Installed by remodeling contractor 11 years ago. Plywood with maple veneer and maple hardwood portions. Upper doors with glass. There was an extensive choice available then. They have held up just fine in our miniature kitchen.

European kitchens should be just fine, especially higher end. Often it's the outer layer (veneer, melamine, steel??) that is more important then what's inside, because the outside has to deal with the moisture, handling etc.

Layman's opinion, so take it with sufficient NaCl. YMMV

[Swingman]

You are correct to be concerned.

IME, for longevity, and particularly with Euro style cabinets, go with the hardwood PLYWOOD boxes option, without question.

My qualifications for this "voice of experience" opinion regarding kitchen cabinet construction:

[Steven Bornfeld]

Thanks--that makes sense. The importer claimed that in Europe they are not ALLOWED to use plywood because of environmental concerns--something about the glue. When we moved into our current apartment a big selling point was the Poggenpohl cabinets. But they were melamine, and the cabinet doors under the sink (which got wet occasionally) eventually delaminated. The importer guy acted insulted that I'd even ask the question.

Steve

[Steven Bornfeld]

>Pretty impressive--thanks!

[Max]

IMHO, cabinet grade plywood is superior to MDF or any of the other "compressed wood" products. I am a hobbyist woodworker but I have managed to pay for my workshop and tools strictly from income derived from building cabinets, bookcases, entertainment centers etc. for profit. Many people prefer the look of "European" style but to me it seems a bit "sterile" or plain. Much depends on the rest of the decor in the house and especially the kitchen. Having said that, the European style can be accomplished using plywood instead of MDF, MDO or other products. ...........................IMHO. By the way, screws aren't used as prevalently in cabinets as you might imagine.

Max

[RonB]

I would go with the hardwood plywood . Nothing wrong with that if built with care and quality.

I would also offer another option that might give you better cabinets and save money (but it depends on where you live).

We live in SE Kansas just 30-40 minutes from the Oklahoma and Missouri state lines. There is no shortage of cheap hardwood, and very skilled cabinet makers in this region. We compared two local cabinet shops with Lowes, HD and an area Home Decor Store. We ended up going with one of the independent cabinet shops and couldn't possibly be happier. The shop owner's wife was the designer and coordinator. She measured everything, did simple CAD drawings to show us what we would get, and she checked in while the carpenters were building the house to make sure nothing changed. She had face-to-face contact with plumbers, electricians and myself to make sure things would fit. Quality is wonderful. Drawer and door fronts use Oak that is planed thicker and finish is beautiful. Top-notch hardware and assembly. The cabinet shop crew installed them themselves and did it expertly. They were 10%-15% below the competition because they had full control of the project from design to install; and they "shipped" them in their enclosed trailer. Our case is not an anomaly - our son built his home about 120 miles east of us, in the middle of the Ozark lumber region, and had a similar experience. Main difference is his cabinet shop hired an installer.

If you live in a region that might have the right kind of resources, look around.

RonB

[Swingman]

On a Euro slab door, I'm now a convert to MDF. In particular a Temple-Inland product called "UltraStock":

moisture resistance variety is a plus for DOORS and DRAWER Fronts in the kitchen environment; and the finishing for most Euro type finishes is much better, and much less expensive to effect, than plywood doors and drawer fronts.

Highly recommended!!

[Han]

Swingman wrote in news:JZadnYHuCalqxtjTnZ2dnUVZ [e-mail]:

As expected from Karl, excellent information from a PRO!!

[Steven Bornfeld]

Well, it sounds like the domestic maker thinks this way. The boxes are plywood; the doors are MDF with maple veneer, multiple layers of finish. I figure there will still be some back-and-forth about the details. My wife is pushing for Blum hardware. Thanks to all for the knowledgeable responses!

Steve

[Steven Bornfeld]

I doubt very much that we do (I'm in Brooklyn NY), but your way sounds wonderful!

Steve

[dadiOH]

Horse hocky

Ply is much, much better. It is strong, it is unlikely to be ruined if there is a leaky pipe. It does screws just fine as long as the screws are into the face, not edges. Its one disadvantage (in addition to cost) to something like melamine covered particle board is that it has to be finished (coated).

With particle/fiber board, glue works much better for holding things together than do screws. Nothing wrong with glue for ply either.

Keep in mind that euro style cabinets are usually boxes without a face frame. That can give them a clean look but also makes them less strong; OTOH, cabinets don't *have* to be all that strong.

Personally, I prefer ply, face frames and solid overlay doors. Gives a pretty clean look and they last and last.

[Doug Houseman]

I work in Europe routinely. Plywood is expensive in Europe, only in the Nordic countries can you find it at a reasonable price. Most large European manufactures make the compressed wood to size, no sheet goods and then cutting out parts. There is more glue and VOC in most compressed wood than in Plywood. IKEA made compressed wood acceptable in Europe and most companies have followed the IKEA lead. There is no "BAN" on plywood. I have had cabinets that were compressed wood, one weekend the sink was left running by a roommate and it overflowed, what we came back to was mush - the compressed wood had uncompressed in the kickplate areas and the sink cabinet - what a mess.

[Max]

Interesting! Thank you.

Max

[Max]

"RonB" wrote

I would go with the hardwood plywood . Nothing wrong with that if built with care and quality.

I would also offer another option that might give you better cabinets and save money (but it depends on where you live).

We live in SE Kansas just 30-40 minutes from the Oklahoma and Missouri state lines. There is no shortage of cheap hardwood, and very skilled cabinet makers in this region. We compared two local cabinet shops with Lowes, HD and an area Home Decor Store. We ended up going with one of the independent cabinet shops and couldn't possibly be happier. The shop owner's wife was the designer and coordinator. She measured everything, did simple CAD drawings to show us what we would get, and she checked in while the carpenters were building the house to make sure nothing changed. She had face-to-face contact with plumbers, electricians and myself to make sure things would fit. Quality is wonderful. Drawer and door fronts use Oak that is planed thicker and finish is beautiful. Top-notch hardware and assembly. The cabinet shop crew installed them themselves and did it expertly. They were 10%-15% below the competition because they had full control of the project from design to install; and they "shipped" them in their enclosed trailer. Our case is not an anomaly - our son built his home about 120 miles east of us, in the middle of the Ozark lumber region, and had a similar experience. Main difference is his cabinet shop hired an installer.

If you live in a region that might have the right kind of resources, look around.

RonB

Oh, shut up, Ron. You're just trying to make me feel bad about living in the desert.

Max

[Steven Bornfeld]

Thanks--that's consistent with what I'm reading.

Steve

[Steven Bornfeld]

Thanks for the reply!

Steve

[RicodJour]

Europe they are

I'd steer away from a guy that mixed sketchy information and attitude. Plywood is not banned in Europe - it's a cost/availability thing. Historically the main plywood producing region in France was a place called Mont Ventoux - maybe you've seen recent pictures? ;)

The cabinet boxes themselves are not as susceptible to moisture damage such as your Poggenpohl doors experienced unless there is a leak or a spill puddle is left standing. Little barely noticeable leaks will eat a melamine cabinet box faster than a plywood box.

That being said, either will probably serve your needs as I doubt that you let sleeping puddles lie.

R

[Eric]

Thanks--that's consistent with what I'm reading.

Steve

===================

"Compressed wood"if built in layers is also called "plywood" these days!

Many times a nice layer of veneer on each side with a bunch of scrambled chip garbage in the middle is still sold as "plywood"

[Leon]

I think that who ever is selling scrambled chip garbage with a nice outer veneer as plywood is either ignorant or thinks you might be. That clearly describes either OSB with a veneer or Particle board with a veneer.

Plywood is always going to have continuous thin sheets of wood built up to the thickness that is desired.